55: Building Your Own Tech Career Path - Bootcamp, Teaching & Big Platforms with Sabrina Goldfarb

Erika (00:00) Welcome to the Overcommitted Podcast, your weekly dose of real engineering conversations. I’m your host this week, Erika, and I am joined by…

Bethany (00:08) Hey,

I’m Bethany.

Erika (00:10) We have met while working on a team at GitHub and quickly realized we are all obsessed with getting better at what we do. So we decided to start this podcast to share what we’ve learned. We’ll be talking about everything from leveling up your technical skills to navigating your professional development, all with the goal of creating a community where engineers can learn and connect. Today, we are so excited to have Bri Goldfarb on the show. Brie is an engineer working at GitHub and she’s

the GitHub Copilot team, and honestly she’s kind of a model for what it looks like to build a meaningful career in tech without losing yourself along the way. She’s navigated chronic illness, burnout, and a non-traditional path into engineering, and she’s come out on the other side speaking at conferences around the world and teaching others. So, Bri, welcome to Overcommitted.

Bri (01:03) Thank you, I’m so excited to be here with y’all.

Erika (01:06) Let’s kick off things the way we always do. What’s one thing you’re currently building or obsessed with learning right now?

Bri (01:14) Yeah, so I’m currently working on a new AI agents course as my next part and master’s course. And I’ve been really obsessed with it just because it’s also helping me every day on the co pilot team. It’s really interesting because I feel like I am always behind when it’s like comes to AI, which is funny, like working directly on the product, but it’s like every single day something new is happening. And so every single day I’m like,

learning something and being like, okay, actually what I learned yesterday is totally out the window now because something new just happened. And I think that’s really fun and really exciting to be in. And I feel really lucky to be here.

Erika (01:54) That certainly does take some grit to keep going and not get frustrated with and approach it with a sense of curiosity and positivity rather than frustration that things are constantly changing. Yeah.

Bri (02:06) and dread. Yeah, no, just kidding.

Erika (02:11) Well, let’s talk about something you’ve been very generous and open with us in sharing that you live with a condition that causes severe anemia, and that’s not a small thing. It affects your energy, your focus, your whole life rhythm. So how has that shaped your experience as an engineer?

Bri (02:34) Yeah, I think it’s been really interesting. Up until a couple months ago, I never would have considered myself to be like a chronically ill person. Like I just am like, I get sick all the time, but like I don’t really understand why. And when I realized a few years ago that I was dealing with a condition that caused this, it was really hard for me because at work you’re kind of expected to be there, especially as a software engineer, right? You need to pair program a lot and do all those things. And I just wasn’t able to all the time. I mean,

Anemia covers everything, like you said, from like your focus to like literally all my hair was falling out and things like that. And just kind of having those moments every day was really, really hard. but I think it, really taught me how to be a better engineer because I wasn’t there all the time. And so I learned like push my code up really early and often and go for like async reviews, right? Talk to more people all the time. Make sure that when I’m looking at projects, I’m not just looking at them.

from a perspective of like, what can I bring to the project? But also, how much help am I gonna need from other people and how much can I do just on my own? And I think that’s really important for people that suffer with chronic illnesses is to kind of really look at the work ahead of time and say, how much can I do with this without needing other people? So that if I do need to leave for a doctor’s appointment or an entire day of an iron infusion.

I’m still not getting behind and I’m still able to really make those big impacts and my manager isn’t getting frustrated with me. And I think working with your manager too and having an understanding manager is always helpful. But that’s something that I’ve really learned and would love for other people with chronic illness to understand and know is that like, it’s okay, you can do it. You just have to be a little more methodical than everybody else does.

Erika (04:15) you

Yeah, there’s that kind of idea of like the mythical man month and this idea that like develop those are constantly overestimating what you can do in an hour, a day, a week, a month. like, it sounds like from your perspective, you’re like, well, I literally can’t do that because like, I might not even have all the hours in a week that somebody else would have. Like I have to take advantage of like every single minute and sort of plan it out for myself.

Bri (04:40) Yep.

100%. And I think that’s been really great to be on teams that are so supportive and be in a remote role that’s so supportive of that. I can only imagine how people are doing this when they have to show up in an office. So I feel really, really lucky that I don’t.

Erika (05:00) for sure. Yeah, well, yeah, I guess I’ve had that experience a little bit to a lesser degree with parenting. Like, I think before having a kid, I would like, you know, push work past 5 p.m. and it was fine and like, you know,

whatever hours it needed to get something done, like I would go ahead and put those in. ⁓ And like I still will to a certain degree, but weekend hours, for example, I literally can’t spend a whole bunch of weekend time doing work or development or like side projects or anything because I’m hanging out with my kid all weekend. So yeah, it’s…

It is a mindset shift to really be considerate of the hours that you do have. yeah, recognizing that time is finite and you can only do so much with what you have. And that doesn’t mean you’re any less of an engineer as long as you’re communicating and thoughtful about the way you spend your time.

Bri (06:13) Yeah, I think it’s so hard to see people who sometimes who are, you know, able to spend a hundred plus hours a week at a roll and kind of see them surpassing you sometimes even in level or whatever it might be, or just see them getting a ton of praise. And I think sometimes like we really internalize that. And I think it’s really important to understand, like you said, whether you’re a parent, like there’s so many reasons that you might not be able to bring.

yourself to work that many hours and nobody should ever expect you to anyway, like let’s be real. But you know, it’s not like doctors get asked what surgery they did on a weekend, but as a software engineer, it’s all about what you did on a weekend that was like related to this. And I think it’s totally like something we have to really tell ourselves is it’s okay to not be there every second of every day. we have lives, like you said, time is finite, let’s spend it in like the best ways we can and enjoy our lives.

Erika (07:05) sure. Yeah, Bethany, do you have anything to add from your experiences?

Bethany (07:11) Yeah, so I, I mean, I’ve been fortunate that I can give a lot of my time and stuff. And I think too, when you’re in that position, it’s important to, like you’re saying, Bri, not overextend yourself at work because sometimes it’s easy to do that because there’s this like value and praise and such associated with that. But I think it’s so important to find meaning and value outside

of work. And even if you don’t have like a child or like other things, like still having that value outside of your identity as an employee or outside of that like work role is so important. And a lot of people don’t do it because it’s hard. It’s hard to find that meaning. But I think it’s it’s so important because it’s not sustainable to give everything to work and it’s not productive or healthy.

to do that. because I mean, if you’re ever in a position where you can’t give 100 plus hours to work, then suddenly people will be questioning your abilities and such and then that’s never a good thing. So it’s just not a sustainable thing. And it’s always good to find that meaning outside of things and also not reward when

when there is that heroic effort. So making sure you try to reward taking time in lieu if you had to work on a weekend or had to respond to an incident after hours and reward taking time off if you’re not feeling well and such, rather than rewarding working while you’re sick or things like that. think it’s just, you have to make the system sustainable and really can be

to do that, but once you start doing it, others typically will follow through because they’re like, this is way better to not work while I’m actively ill or not able to. So, yeah.

Erika (09:01) interesting like the question of motivation and like rewards too where like always find that my harshest critic and

A of times when I’m pushing myself, it’s nobody else telling me like, you have to do this, you have to like work 100 hours or whatever. Like it’s, it’s usually me saying those things to myself, like, oh, I’m not good enough. Like, this is not good enough, that kind of stuff. And like, there is, there is usually like a secondary voice in the back of my head, like, oh, this will like get me to my promotion or this will, you know, look really good or this is going to impress somebody else or something like that. like, I do feel like, yeah, it’s,

always some kind of combination of the two. But yeah, it’s, it’s almost like, like, eating and like feeding yourself too. Like, I feel like I’ve developed a bit of like, like a hunger sense when I know that I’m like, pushing myself too hard. And like, I’ll feel that, like, physically of like, I need to like stand up and just like, go outside for a few minutes or like,

something like that, where, yeah, I feel like I’m starting to develop that. It’s, taken me this long, I think, like, to really like understand and recognize those sort of like rest hunger cues, I’ll call them. but yeah, it’s, it’s helpful to like recognize that those exist in my experience and, and honor them.

Well, yeah, so that’s kind of within work. And then we are all also putting ourselves out there in the developer community. And you’ve talked about your experience of speaking, sharing, teaching. And those are also things that can induce burnout. So

What does that look like for you as far as balancing, putting yourself out there a sense of burnout? You’ve kind of mentioned that you’ve found some things that have worked out of experiencing some burnout in the past. So maybe you can walk us through sort of like where you started, what happened and how you handle it now.

Bri (11:06) Yeah, so a couple of years ago when the macroeconomic climate, whatever we want to call it, was at its worst, my partner had been laid off and was laid off for a very significant amount of time. And I was lucky enough to be working full-time at GitHub still at that point and have these teaching opportunities which pay, right? So I can’t say no to those when I’m, you know, kind of holding up the household.

And then also at that time, I had the opportunity to start a startup, which sounded really exciting. That’s like my goal, right? My dream is to one day be like going full throttle startups. So I had that opportunity all at the same time. So I’m working on GitHub on the billing team at that point, which was not quite as hectic as co-pilot, but it’s still like, was, you know, more than 40 hours a week. And I’m also doing the startup 40 hours a week. And I’m also, you know, teaching on the weekends.

And I was running and running until I absolutely hit that wall of just, it’s not possible, right? There’s only so many hours in a week that someone can do something. And this was at a time before Co-Pilot was, you know, able to write so much code for me where I could just, you know, designate agents all day and do that. It was like, I was putting in all this time. And I think it’s really hard in our industry to avoid burnout sometimes because

To us, we’re just sitting at home on a computer, right? Like this shouldn’t be that hard. I should be able to do it all day, every day. I should be able to go, go, go forever. But there is like that mental, you know, tax that we’re paying and it’s such like a difficult thing to write code and not just write code, but make sure you’re writing good code and make sure that things aren’t breaking and testing things and working with other people. At one point in the startup, I was running a team of seven people and also working my day job. So.

You know, I really hit that wall very hard and it was very hard to come back from. And I’m really lucky and glad that I was able to and able to still maintain my full-time job and everything in that. But now I really try, like you said, and like really check in with my body of like, am I feeling? Because I think it’s so easy to ignore it. And also, like you said, it like took me like years to even recognize what does even tired feel like? Like, I don’t even know.

But there are just these moments now that I’m like, maybe I need a piece of chocolate to like reset my brain and let things go. Or like, maybe I need to like walk outside for 15 minutes and just, you know, kind of have that check-in. And now I’m really trying to take things a lot slower. And I really encourage people to do that. I was once teaching a course and it was about like being a visible engineer in such like a bad economic climate, right? And someone after the class was like,

You know, I really didn’t like that class. You told us to do so much stuff and I don’t want to burn out. And I felt so badly that they thought I was telling them that that’s what they should do is like overwork themselves like I was. And I was trying to just tell them like, no, that wasn’t my intention. My intention was very much, these are a ton of options that you have and, you know, make sure you’re protecting your time and yourself. But, you know, when they said that to me, I kind of like had to take my step back to you and say, like, if they’re thinking that’s what I’m saying is that like you should be

proud of me that I’m doing all these things. Like I’m putting the wrong energy out there as well. So now I’m really kind of trying to focus on that and just, you know, focus on my family, focus on my hobbies, actually have hobbies again, and really take care of myself. And I think sometimes we have to push ourselves a little too hard when things are tough, but you know, and try and really reel yourself back in when you can. Yeah.

Erika (14:41) Yeah, definitely taking breaks is great. I also find giving myself small, achievable goals is also really when I’m in the work, that I can do this in an hour. And then once I do it, it feels great and I’m re-energized, as opposed to like…

I have to do these five million things, this task is never gonna get done, and so every time I think about it, it just drains me. Yeah, and I feel like I’ve thought that person from your class before about sort of visibility and getting out there. And a lot of times that has to do with writing blogs. It’s really hard for me to write blogs.

Yeah, it feels like this huge task. so thinking of that as like, I have to do that to get out there feels really intimidating. But some of these other things like talking in Discord or talking with other developers in person or online doesn’t feel nearly as draining to me.

Bri (15:49) Yeah, 100%. I think a big thing that I have always done is just been too excited about things. And it was like with the startup, especially, I kept telling myself, like, only two more weeks, and then I’m going to pass it off only two more weeks, and then I’m going to leave my job and just work at the startup full time, right? Like, but

there’s always more to be done. Like just because this feature gets done, like there’s another feature or another piece of customer feedback or something. There’s always something else and it’s really hard for your brain and I think in software engineering to find an end point because there’s just no end point. There’s just something else to work on next. And I think that’s really hard to not burn out when you have so many continuous points of like, well, just this and this and then maybe this, you know?

Erika (16:37) Yeah, cool. Yeah, so in that same kind of area of growth, continual growth and…

maintaining this over a long period of time, you’ve credited a lot of your own growth to patience and a willingness to step outside your comfort zone, which is a pairing that doesn’t always get talked about. Usually it’s like move fast or like go really deep.

so how do you manage both of those at once? Like how do you stay patient while still pushing yourself?

Bri (17:12) Yeah, so for me, I come from a non-traditional tech background. I was a video editor for four or five years before I became a software engineer and I went the boot camp route. It took me like literally six years to make the full transition, way too long, which is why I like to teach now because I don’t want it to take anyone else ever that long to make the swap because I’m so painful.

So for me, I’m very shy naturally, like extremely shy. I hate pair programming. I feel so silly every time still. And so for me, that’s kind of how I put myself out there was doing these like teaching things. And I knew ultimately I wanted to teach on a really large platform like front end masters, because that was where I started my journey in software engineering and learning how to be a software engineer. But I knew I wasn’t going to get through day one, right? So.

For me, putting myself out there and being patient was very much okay. So the first courses I taught, I set up for myself and I just put them in slacks and was like, hey, if anyone wants to come here and like talk about this, let’s do that. And then I got an opportunity to teach with the bootcamp I had gone to. And they wanted me to teach people who were considering going. And I did that for two and a half years. And then suddenly I was teaching alumni who were looking a level up and learn more programming languages and become polyglots and things like that.

then all of sudden I got this opportunity to do a course at Front End Masters. And that was really special to me because every single time it was like, I was raising that bar of uncomfort of having to teach people who are more and more technical every single time, but also really finding that patience. It took me another six years to go from teaching on my own to teaching at such a big place. And I think it was worth every step because by the time I got there, I had gotten feedback from thousands of people on.

things I did well, things I didn’t do well, right? That person who told me that I was encouraging the wrong things, like that really made me step back and think, how am I saying things? Like, how are people perceiving the things I’m saying? Teaching people who knew nothing about software engineering taught me about how to break down concepts for people, but also teach people who already knew a lot. And so I really think that all of it kind of came together for me in a really nice way. But I really think that’s important that people

be patient in their career because sometimes things are going to take longer than they want no matter what their end goal is, but also put themselves out there because you never know what could possibly happen. I never would have thought that thousands of people would be watching my courses and reaching out to me and, you know, telling me all these amazing stories and that’s like, I could cry thinking about it. It’s so wonderful, you know, it’s truly amazing.

Erika (19:43) Well, I’ll turn this question to Bethany, but feel free to jump in, Brie, if you have thoughts. If there’s ever been a time when you stayed too long in your comfort zone or you’ve moved too fast and skipped the depth.

Bethany (20:01) Um, you know, I’m not, I’m not so sure. Um, I think like, you can always, uh, look back on things and have regrets because I mean, hindsight’s 20-20, but I think most of the time you’re doing what you need to do with the information you have. And so I, I struggle making decisions. So I try as hard as possible not to, uh,

regret what decisions I do make. So I just try to be like, well, maybe next time do this or do that. But I think my experience is like,

where I’m at now is a culmination of those decisions and where I’ve been. So I don’t know if I could say like, I stayed too long in things because I mean, I could say that me writing Go my entire career is staying too long in my comfort zone, but I really enjoy Go and that’s where I like developing. So yeah, I think it’s just if an opportunity comes and you’re able to, and you feel like switching then.

do it, but if you’re also happy where you’re at, then stay. I don’t think there’s necessarily a wrong answer there, or it really just depends on what you want with your career and where you’re going.

Erika (21:19) Yeah, I think the reflection look back is helpful to sort of like learn from in the past, but it’s also good to give yourself your past self grace and say, I was doing the best with what I knew at the time. Yeah, I feel like I tend towards the moving too fast side of the spectrum.

I’m ambitious when it comes to pushing myself out of my comfort zone. But sometimes that does kind of get me in trouble where I end up doing too many things at once or agreeing to something that I have no idea how to do. But I’ve also learned that that’s not unique in engineers. was talking to somebody the other day and he’s a…

Is he principal now or distinguished? You know, like very high up in GitHub. And I was like, well, how would you do this? And he’s like, I don’t know. He’s like, I almost never know how to do these things at the start. But then I like figure out like I figure out the end goal and I work backwards. I was like, well, that’s really comforting that you don’t have this all in your head either. And like, it’s OK not to know things up front. So. Yeah.

Bri (22:34) That’s so cool to hear. I love when people who are at that level are like, have no idea, because I’m like, no way. Like, you ever feel like that? No way.

Erika (22:44) Yeah. Yeah, well, especially like, since it’s, it feels like people define these points of like, I’ve made it, like, you know, this level is like, well, now I’m…

Bri (22:59) Mm-hmm.

Erika (23:00) Like

now I’m at the point that I said that I would be and great. Like I don’t have to do anything else. It’s how I can see from the outside or even how some people can sort of communicate their career.

and success. Like you mentioned sort of this idea of working for a prestigious tech company and that being sort of like the North Star for a lot of people starting out their careers. And yeah, mentioning that like chasing that from day one can mean that you’re missing a lot of growth along the way. Yeah, so I guess

what does that kind of mean to you and your goals? Like, is this something that you’ve come to realize over the years? Is this sort of a lesson that you’ve had to teach yourself? Or is this something that you kind of knew from the outset?

Bri (24:02) Yeah, so I think and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people chasing those goals, especially really in their career. Whatever people want to do, I think they should absolutely try and do. But so for me, this comes from my brother went to Harvard. OK, so he’s like perfect Harvard graduate. He has like a photographic memory. He’s in Mensa. He’s like truly like that person, right? But he still has like amazing social skills. I don’t know. He’s like one in a million, right?

And I went to the University of Miami and that’s still a great school. But when you’re looking at your sibling that went to Harvard, who everybody when he graduates is fawning over, please take my job, please take all this money. And you’re like graduating and like, I don’t have a job, what do I do? Right? Like, I think there’s this like competitiveness that I’ve just felt my entire life with him, even though we’re very close. And I saw that very much when I went to the bootcamp that so many people were graduating and just

so hyper fixated on being at a fang company or being at a company like GitHub or Microsoft. And it’s funny because I’ll get messages, like dozens of them in a week, like, I graduated yesterday. Will you please refer me to GitHub? And I’m like, sure, but also maybe take some time and learn. And my thoughts on it are just, I went to a startup right outside of the boot camp that I went to.

And the amount that I’ve learned in just a few months there was absolutely incredible because at GitHub, if something goes wrong, I have Bethany and 30 other people to help me. And half the time I’m just passing it off to another team anyway. I’m like, this wasn’t even our problem, right? But when I was at the startup and there were three software engineers on the entire team, we really had to dig in and own anything. And sometimes there was nobody to help you. And I think there’s just so much to learn that

you don’t necessarily get at a larger company. And I think it makes it easier to go one way versus the other, right? I can easily go from a startup to a large company and say, now I have all this help and I have all these internal tools and all this other stuff. But if I’m trying to go the opposite way from GitHub back to a startup, which I’ve considered, like I said, I really want to be in startups, it’s so much scarier. It is genuinely so scary and so hard.

And I think a lot of people just really see the prestige of the name and just really want that the same way I always wanted like Harvard under my name. And don’t get me wrong, I think it’s really cool. There are recruiters in my inbox every day because of it, but I actually never even applied to GitHub. It wasn’t like a goal of mine to get to a big company. I knew I always wanted to be in startups. They reached out to me because I just happened to be really involved in the developer community and we’re like, hey, we’re doing a lot of interviewing. Would you want to come and interview? And I was like,

Okay, and I took the interview as a joke and I don’t mean that like in a rude way, but I took it thinking there’s no way I’m ever gonna pass. I took it to practice for other interviews. And so when I got the offer, I was like, well, now what do I do? Like I got this amazing offer from this amazing company. I can’t say no, but it just wasn’t, it wasn’t in my path initially. And so I just want other people to consider that and see that and see that like there are other paths to take and all of them are equally good, even if

you you think a name really matters or a salary really matters or something, you know, I just, I just want other people to consider like other options as well, because I feel like sometimes there’s this hyper fixation on these names. And as we’ve seen over the past couple of years, these brands aren’t really loyal to us. So why should we be so loyal to them, you know, and, you know, give other places a chance to follow me.

Erika (27:37) Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you’ve also mentioned that sometimes like doing anything that gets you closer to your goal is worthwhile. Do you have any concrete examples that come to mind for times that that was true for you, where you maybe did something that felt sideways but turned out to really matter?

Bri (27:59) Yeah, I think kind of what I was talking about before with the teaching and kind of really building up. So it’s funny, there were so many people along my path of teaching that were like, are wasting your time. You are teaching for almost no money to all of these people and taking all of this time to prep all of these courses and do all of this work for nothing. They’re like, it’s not gonna get you anywhere. Like, it’s not gonna do anything for you. And I was like, please just like trust.

my instincts. I was like, can feel it. I can feel that I’m getting better at what I’m doing. And I can feel that this is like what I was meant to do ultimately. So just like trust these instincts. And you know, the people in my life were very supportive and were like, okay, but if it doesn’t get you anywhere, don’t say we didn’t tell you so. And you know, it was one of those moments where it was very much trust the process for like four plus years. And when I finally got the opportunity to teach on such a larger scale, I was like,

going over to all of them and being like, I told you it would work, I told you it would work. Not like, told you so, right, but just like an excited way of like, and they were all like, you know what, you were right. Like now, you know, now I’ve had the ability to go from teaching these 15 minute lead code problems to this one hour lecture, to this two hour lecture. So when I had to prep this eight hour course, it was like, okay, I can do this. It was still really scary and it was still a totally new mindset shift. you know, it…

took a lot of different skills and it was really scary. But at the same time, I had prepped myself so well for it that it just felt much more doable. And so that’s why I think that if people, if their ultimate goal is to work for a thing, but they’re not getting it right away, okay, so work at a startup and learn everything you can about the data structures within it, right? Prep those system designs and do all the things that you need to do, whatever your goal is.

there are so many tiny steps you could take that might feel like they’re not important and might feel like they’re taking you too long. But if you actually stick with them, like, there’s no chance you won’t get there. And I don’t want to say that, like, sure, there’s still a small chance. But, you know, just putting yourself out there, I think really does give you the best chance of doing whatever you want in life. And I don’t know, if I could ever help people to get there, too, then that’s kind of my end goal as well. So

Hopefully the things that I’m doing are showing people you don’t have to have a traditional tech background. You don’t have to have a CS degree. You don’t have to be a man. can do all these other things and be kind of different. And that’s like a positive thing, not a negative thing.

Erika (30:34) What about you Bethany? there any times that you’ve almost skipped something that ended up shaping where you are or any things that you credit that were kind of off the beaten path that have helped you?

Bethany (30:47) Yeah, I mean, I’m going to kind of flip this and say and talk about something that I did skip that shaped who I was. But I so.

I didn’t major in computer science, but I did minor in it and I knew I wanted to be a software engineer. So I was very much trying to go through that process of interviewing at tech companies. And I was going for any company that would take me or interview me. I was like, please hire me. And did not get any offers. So I also applied for a PhD program and I got into that for computer science.

And I did PhD because they pay for your PhD. They don’t pay for your master’s. So anyways, I got accepted and I felt very fortunate about that. But I ended up also getting an internship and got a job offer through that. And so I was stuck with the decision of whether to pursue the PhD or go.

like take a job in the industry. And I really agonized over this because a lot of people wanted me to do the PhD. That was prestigious. was very, like, I could learn a ton about a certain area. And I definitely was like, well, what?

what route do I want to go? But I knew which route I wanted to go. I wanted the job. That’s what I had always wanted, but because I was like, but this isn’t prestigious enough. This isn’t, I won’t have a doctor next to my name or whatnot. I struggled with it, but I ended up choosing the job. And I’m so happy I did because I saw my friends who were in that program, my friends who were in other PhD programs, really struggling going through that. And it is a struggle to

a PhD, you have to really, really want it and really know what you want to research. Have a love for that. And I just did not have that. It wouldn’t have been right for me to stick with that. I would have been so unhappy had I stuck with that. So I’m eternally grateful I did. And I respect everyone who does go through and gets their PhD. This is not me discrediting that because I think that is amazing. But it was, I think,

okay for me to say that’s not for me and to not finish that because I’m very much a completionist. like, I have to see through what I start, but it’s okay. I don’t want to do it. So, and that’s okay to say that and to say, okay, I’m going to stop here.

Bri (33:04) That is so cool. What an awesome thing. Like, I never would have even thought about, like, the fact that a PhD takes so much, like, knowledge of what you would want to study and write about and think about, but that makes a ton of sense. Like, what a great way to, know yourself that much too. That’s so cool. I didn’t know that. Wow.

Bethany (33:22) thank you. No, it really is. think because you end up going into this niche like research area and you just have to so much love for that. And some people do and that’s amazing. And I, we need people that want that, but it’s okay to also not be that person and to not want that as well. But it was hard to accept, but we’re here. That’s fine.

Bri (33:28) Yeah.

Erika (33:45) Wow.

Awesome. Thank you both for sharing so much about your stories. And we have spent this whole episode about talking about enjoying the journey. So naturally, we’re going to end by asking about the worst parts of our job. So welcome to Would You Rather, Software Engineering Edition, where there are no good answers, only less bad ones.

So I will ask a would you rather question. We’ll go around and say which which we would prefer of these horrific theoretical situations here. Alright, the first one is would you rather do a live code review of your most embarrassing commit or give a keynote with no prep time?

I think I would rather give a ⁓

Bri (34:34) I me too. I

think me too. I would just make it up at least, but don’t look at my worst commit.

Bethany (34:40) Yeah, same. I know everybody is like, you shouldn’t associate your own intrinsic value to your code, but man, I do.

Erika (34:50) Yeah, yeah,

there’s some stinkers in my my get history that I would not want to drag up. So I would I would just take a keynote and talk about something random and then leave the stage.

Bri (35:02) Same. Same.

Erika (35:04) Alright, second question. Would you rather work entirely in a language you hate or always work solo with no team?

Bri (35:14) I’m going solo with no team and Bethany I’m really sorry to say this to you but go is that language for me. I know it’s so popular and I know it’s horrible to say because every job is gonna look at me and be like no we’re all moving to go but go is that language for me.

Bethany (35:21) ⁓ no!

No, I mostly feel bad because that’s all our team does.

No, I would also work solo with no team. Definitely. But Rails was that for me, so there was a point where I was like, man, this is horrible.

Erika (35:44) Yeah.

Yeah, I know. I feel like I feel the same way a little bit about Rails. And that’s like, pretty much really what I work in now. So I think I’m gonna pick that one because it’s my lived experience and I enjoy my team a lot right now. So. Okay, next one. Would you rather have 1,000 unread Slack notifications or a code base with zero documentation?

Bethany (36:17) Gosh, the zero documentation. I cannot handle notifications. Like I’m looking over at my Slack, there’s two notifications right now and I can barely handle that.

Erika (36:25) you

Bri (36:26) live notifications. I cannot imagine, like, I forget how to run the server, like my server, even after a year of being on a team. like, how do I run this again? You know what? I don’t know. There’s like something in my brain that just doesn’t want to remember things. So I need documentation.

Erika (36:45) I feel like this answer has changed for me with like AI spelunking because usually the first thing I do now is like spelunk, like have an AI assisted sort of like navigation and exploration if it’s like an area that I don’t really know.

So yeah, I think at this point I would say code base with zero documentation because I’m with you every single Slack notification drives me nuts. Okay, one more. Would you rather that your rubber duck talked back or that your manager never talked at all?

Bethany (37:22) I want to hear my rubber duck talk. That sounds great.

Erika (37:25) Thank

Bri (37:26) Me

too. Me too.

Erika (37:31) Would it have like a certain personality? Like, would you have like a sassy duck or like, like a nice duck?

Bri (37:31) Unless it’s a mean rubber duck, I don’t know.

You

know, what if my duck tells me that my code is bad? I, you know what I mean? Like what if it stresses me out? And then I’m like, now I’m pair programming with someone who’s mean all the time. I don’t know.

Erika (37:42) Yeah.

Bethany (37:48) Ha ha.

But if your duck criticizes you, then you never have to do a live code review of your most embarrassing commit, because the duck would stop you from doing that.

Erika (37:58) Exactly.

Bri (37:59) True.

Erika (38:00) Yeah. I feel

like this would be a good antidote to the sort of yes anding of AI assisted coding, where you have your LLM that’s like, yes, everything you do is great. And then you have your sassy duck that’s like, that sucks. What are you doing? Yeah. ⁓

Bri (38:18) Yes, I will take that. I will take Sassy Duck. I’ll definitely take Sassy Duck.

Erika (38:28) man. Well, Brie, this has been such a fun and refreshing conversation. Thank you so much for your openness, your honesty, and for modeling for all of us what it looks like to build a career that actually fits your life. So where can people find you if they’re looking for you?

Bri (38:43) Thank you.

Definitely LinkedIn is the biggest place. I’m on LinkedIn too much, but you know, if I take a while to respond, I’m sorry. I get like anxiety about responding to messages. But anyway, other places they can find me are on Front End Masters. My prompt engineering course is already out and I’m teaching an AI agents course in May. So you can find me on Front End Masters or just look at my GitHub and don’t mind my terrible commits.

Erika (39:16) Awesome. And we’ll link the front end master’s course and your LinkedIn in the show notes.

Bri (39:22) Awesome.

Erika (39:23) Well, to our listeners, if this episode resonated with you, please share it with an engineering friend who needs to hear it. Follow us wherever you your podcasts, check us out on Blue Sky, and we’ll see you next week on Overcommitted. Bye.