22: Ep. 22 | Leveling Up: Gamification in Software Development

Erika (00:00) Welcome to the Overcommitted Podcast where we discuss our code commits, our personal commitments, and some stuff in between. I’m your host this week, Erika. Join by.

Bethany (00:09) Hey, I’m Bethany.

Brittany Ellich (00:10) Brittany?

Jonathan Tamsut (00:11) John.

Erika (00:11) We are software engineers who initially met as a new hire group at GitHub and found a common interest in continuous learning and building interesting projects. We continue to meet to share our learning experiences and discuss our lives as developers. Whether you’re pushing code or taking on new challenges, we are happy you’re listening. Today, we are talking about the role of gamification in software development. I first came across this idea reading feel good productivity, which

introduces a study conducted by Mark Rober, a NASA trained engineer who recruited 50,000 people to try a new computer challenge. And participants were divided into two groups when they wrote code that didn’t work. One group received a generic error message that said, you have failed, please try again. And the other group received the message, you have failed, you’ve lost five points, you now have 195 points, please try again.

And the results are really interesting. The participants in the first group made an average of 12 attempts and had a 68 % success rate. And those in the second group made an average of five attempts and had a 52 % success rate. So the takeaway here is that we are afraid of failure, even when it’s arbitrary and left to chance.

When he was sharing his findings, Rober posed the question, if we could frame our learning process so that we weren’t so concerned with failure, how much more could we learn and how much more could we exceed? So in the book, Ali Abdaal, the author, suggests that we imagine what life would look like if we received five proverbial points for failing rather than losing five, like in the experiment.

And so today on the pod, we’ll be talking about applying this idea to our professional life as software engineers, including how we currently experience this fear of failure and how to foster a culture and environment where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth and some potential risks for gamifying a process. So let’s start with this idea called the Super Mario Effect.

which comes from Mark Roper’s research where he discovered that in video games, because dying or failing a level isn’t a penalty, the focus is on this end goal of winning the game, not the fear of failure. So that’s the opposite of that losing five points. And so my question for all of us, maybe starting with Bethany, as a software engineer, how much…

Do feel like your work is about trial and error?

Bethany (02:46) Yeah, so at GitHub, think we have a really cool, I don’t know what you’d call it, a saying, but it’s ship to learn. We’re actually encouraged to try to try things out in production and validate our experiments or our thoughts.

I think there is definitely a lot of trial and error, but I think that you also can leverage data and metrics and things to understand what you’re doing better and gain more criteria on what is success, what is failure. And so I think while there is a lot of that, there is a way to safely introduce these tests and experiments without necessarily

making the product worse or making it a bad experience or whatnot. So I think it is interesting to think about how to test your ideas and thoughts in as much of a real world environment as possible, but also being safe about it in a way. But I don’t think it’s necessarily important to scrutinize over this incidents happen and you can’t let fear of an incident.

prevent you from actually going and doing cool stuff.

Jonathan Tamsut (04:03) Yeah.

Erika (04:03) Yeah,

so Brittany, John, do you ever find that fear of failure, like introducing a bug or breaking a build, can stifle your creativity or willingness to experiment?

Jonathan Tamsut (04:16) You go for any if you want.

Brittany Ellich (04:17) I so. think, I mean, sometimes I am really nervous as I’m working in a new area and it takes me a little while to build up the confidence in a new area that the change that I’m making is not going to break something. But I think as I gain more confidence in an area, I feel like that fear of failure tends to go down. think I’ve noticed throughout my career too about the value, like Bethany said, of experimenting.

And I think what I’ve learned over time is that that trial and error and experimenting, what becomes more important is being able to like put data behind things and show what you predict the change is going to make a difference, make a change as, and what you think that experiment is going to do. And then actually following through and running it sort of like a science experiment instead of just trial and error. So informed trial and error, I guess.

Jonathan Tamsut (05:05) Yeah, I feel like the associations I was making when we were talking about fear are like, what it’s sort of like maybe, I think like fear comes out maybe when you’re like, proposing a solution to a complex problem. Like if you’re writing an ADR, I feel like there’s sometimes fear about unknowns, if there’s a high complexity situation, you know, if you’re the…

sort of one who’s in charge of this and who’s sort of at fault if things don’t go wrong, I think there can be fear and stress. And I think, you know, part of that is like social, like, you you want your colleagues to think highly of you. Part of that is, you know, I think, you know, I mean, right, it’s like, it’s funny. I mean, I think in a corporate environment, you know, I mean, there’s this, you know, shift to learn saying, I think,

Right? To the degree to which that’s actually in practice. I think, I question it, right? Don’t ship bugs. Be really careful and mistakes are penalized. I think there’s also kind of another association I was making with like, I think people, especially people at big tech companies, well, yeah, I’m kind of blasting people at big tech companies, so I apologize.

I think people with secure jobs can be afraid of ⁓ risk taking. I saw a quote recently that was one of these silly LinkedIn quotes, it was like, would you do if you wouldn’t fail? I’ve been recently looking for a job and just reimagining my career. I do think there’s fear up and down the stack. In terms of trial and error.

I don’t know. Whenever there’s a trial, there’s an element of risk. Anyways, those are some general free-form associations I was making.

Erika (06:46) Yeah, I think you touched on an important point though, which is that this idea of success or failure happens on different levels in the software development lifecycle. So it can happen at a feature level or it can happen at like an overall level and like anywhere in between that. like, you know, anything, anything from like the success of your company down to a single feature can impact

like success or failure and can be seen as like winning or losing depending on your sort of criteria for success. And I also think that sort of what you were saying reminded me that we often don’t, or maybe it was something Bethany was saying, like we don’t necessarily consider the factors for success or failure.

of any given feature or project always at the outset. Sometimes we do, and that’s good, but I recently did a pre-mortem for a project, and it was exactly this thought experiment of what does success look like, what does failure look like from a technical level? Because I think the first thing that my mind goes to with failure is,

And what I personally experience with the fear of failure is this project doesn’t complete on time or this project doesn’t complete at all because we take too long and leadership shifts priorities or leadership shifts priorities in the middle of working on it it’s going perfectly fine. And how does that reflect on me? Was it because of something I did? And yeah, definitely, like you said, when you’re leading a project,

you feel like you have a lot of investment in it. And it does feel like a personal, like, yeah, I personally feel it personally when things don’t go well. But a lot of times that has to do with sort of like knee-jerk reactions of some comment somebody made on an ADR, like, you know.

pointing out constructive criticism of an approach or yeah, like, we set this deadline and we’re past that deadline. So I guess there’s an opportunity there to say like, hey, know, self, is this constructive criticism bad? Does it mean that I’m failing or does it mean that, you know, this person’s engaging? And so that’s a positive thing. Like getting feedback in itself is a good thing.

And like maybe shifting the mindset of how I respond to that. Yeah, and like, you know, dates slip, like it’s kind of a fact of life, but are there other things that are going well that you can focus on and celebrate alongside that to maybe offset the frustration that’s happening?

Jonathan Tamsut (09:28) Yeah.

Brittany Ellich (09:29) I think my biggest fear of failure when it comes to leading a project like that is what if we get to the end and the problem that we were trying to solve isn’t solved by the solution. And that’s a thing that keeps me up at night is thinking like, okay, but is this all adding up to solving the problem that we wanted to solve in the first place?

Jonathan Tamsut (09:47) Yeah. And it really, you know, it’s funny, like, I think it’s an element of corporate culture and just, I mean, and I think like all companies have this to a certain extent, or at least every company I’ve worked at, but like, wouldn’t it be great if like, I don’t know, like, like you obviously need some fear of failure or else to incentivize you, but we sometimes we worry so much about it. And I think the way people talk about failure is, you know, people can be so hard on themselves.

and hard on others. Yeah, and it would be, I don’t know, I think there’s maybe like a happy medium where like expectations are high for yourself or whatever, but like you’re not sort of haranguing yourself if you make a mistake.

Yeah, there’s kind of a tension there.

Erika (10:27) you

Well, that’s it.

Jonathan Tamsut (10:28) But

the last thing I was gonna say is I do think trial and error though is specifically in tight feedback cycle learning is like super, like the example you gave is like.

super, super important. It’s sort of like, I think of it like as a sort of a neural network where you’re like back propagating along the weights of a neural network and you’re adjusting them to get like a, you know, ground-tree representation. And it’s like, that’s kind of, you know, it’s like, think trial and error is just like such a fun way to learn where you’re kind of like, oh, I’m going to try this problem. I got it kind of wrong. What did I get wrong? You know, I, and I wish there were more, I’ve talked about this before, but I wish there were more platforms that taught.

Erika (11:04) Yeah, and I guess also related to this, like we’re talking about this idea of, so like the end goal and focusing on the end goal or criteria for success and failure as a like personal motivator. But I think in the example that I gave to of starting a project and something going wrong and then being worried about

losing funding for the project, that idea of focusing on the end goal can also serve to motivate others and like, you know, having like reiterating like this is the point of doing this. Like we can’t quit until we, you know, reach this milestone or this, you know, point of

point of decision. like sometimes, yeah, it’s your point. Like sometimes you try something and it doesn’t work. But yeah, like I think the failure part of that is not the bad thing. The bad thing would be never knowing when you get to the point of like, you know, continuing to sink into a problem and having it not going anywhere, like spinning your wheels.

Yeah, so sort of building on that, some suggestions that I’ve heard for applying gamification to engineering, software engineering include these safe sandbox environments where you can experiment new approaches, or I know we have tooling for deploying feature experiments in production. ⁓

and viewing performance and behavior related metrics or establishing a system where you break down unfamiliar complex topics into quests and levels and use that to motivate achievement. So somewhere that might be familiar somewhere like Code Academy where you have a topic broken down into levels and you

you know, check them off and win badges and stuff like that. So have any of you experienced any of these approaches in your work? And if so, how did they impact your motivation? Maybe I’ll pass it over to Brittany first.

Brittany Ellich (13:12) think I have a direct one-to-one with the levels, but that’s often, I think, the feedback that I’m looking for from completing tasks and completing epics, where I’m completing these things that lead up to this big thing that we can close. I feel like I get a lot of the same satisfaction that I get out of completing a level in a video game. I’m just like, ⁓ yes. That to-do list is complete, and I really enjoy that feeling.

Jonathan Tamsut (13:21) Thank you. ⁓

Brittany Ellich (13:36) and I maybe I think maybe that was like kind of the reason behind the term epic to begin with I don’t know I feel like that’s very you know somewhat game related yeah but yeah I would love to see more gamification of those types of things going forward I know at GitHub anyway we don’t really do any story pointing I think every team does everything

Jonathan Tamsut (13:45) the games.

Brittany Ellich (13:57) their own way, but we don’t really do any story pointing. But in the past, I’ve worked on teams where we estimate things and assign story points. And I feel like having those story points, was like, ooh, I want to complete the most story points in this sprint out of my team or something like that. And I feel like that’s another sort of way that people kind of gamify getting things done. But obviously, if there’s a way to game it, then there’s a way to exploit it and make it not totally accurate.

Jonathan Tamsut (14:17) Yeah.

If I’m being honest, there have been times, like actually like when we were, you know, working on. GitHub stuff as a team, you know, when we were on the same team where I would look at the contributor graph and be like, I got to, I got to climb to number one. And I would like be like, okay, surpass that person’s day. Okay. Got to make a couple more commits. And honestly, mean, it was just, it was really motivating to me. And so, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I like my gold stars for sure.

The other thing I was gonna say, and this is kind of slightly, or maybe this is just an obtuse take, is that like, you know, I’ve been thinking a lot about fear and how fear guides so much of our choices, and it’s like, I really don’t wanna have like a boring or unfulfilling career, because I was like too afraid to take a risk. And so I think the part of maybe this gamification is like, you know, kind of push yourself to take risks.

and recognize when you’re afraid and maybe try to get to the root cause of the fear and deal with it in healthy way. I think that I’m someone who’s been guided by fear and worried. I’ve made a lot of important decisions in my life just because of that. it’s like, well, I don’t know if that’s the life I wanna live. I wanna take risks and make…

you know, bold decisions that are in line with my values. And I don’t want to always, you know, play it safe.

Bethany (15:31) I think it’s so interesting how we each kind of interpreted this question in terms of like John with you and career moves and how you’re handling those. And Brittany, like I relate so much to the to-do list and getting things done. My mind went in a couple directions. One was when, again, when we were all on actions, there was a point where we were trying to determine how to

get people to use their L &D time more because a lot of people had just worked through that and that created a kind of negative cultural implication saying, maybe I shouldn’t be using my L &D time. really, I believe that the the reason behind that was because people aren’t necessarily rewarded for doing L &D work as much. They were rewarded for doing their regular assigned work, whether it’s deadlines or checking off that to-do list.

L &D was kind of this amorphous, scary thing that you had to actually do work to even jump into. So it was really interesting how even gamification played there and how we considered rewarding L &D in a way that made people want to do it and want to see it as something that could help their career or help their visibility within the organization. So I that was a really interesting thing to go after in terms of process.

Initially, when you said sandbox, I was thinking of different environments that we use to do this trial and error. like local development and staging and production. And there’s different risks for doing it in each environment and different pros and cons. And I think with those environments, it’s so important to

In a way, make it easy to test locally. Make it easy to test in staging before you test in prod or something. Because it’s not necessarily bad to test something in prod that you really need to, but it’s going to be way less risky and give you a lot more information if you can do it locally and then in staging first and help you have the data behind what you’re looking for before you try it in an actual production environment.

So that’s where my mind went first with this question, but I love the different ways we kind of took it. That’s awesome.

Erika (17:46) Cool. think, yeah, nothing’s nothing no software change is ever going to be risk free. No matter what kind of mitigation strategies you have. But I think what we were talking about before of like focusing on the goal and like what success looks like and like being clear as a developer of what you’re looking for in any like change or project.

at least helps break out of the cycle of like trial and error going nowhere, like spinning your wheels, which I think is the most demotivating for me. And I’m like hacking at a problem and like don’t even know what the end result is supposed to be. And yeah, that mostly is like stopping, figuring out.

what the problem actually is, like redefining it and then like moving forward. And I, I admittedly don’t play a lot of video games, but I’d imagine that’s like a similar approach in video games where you will actually never win the level if you don’t figure out why, why you keep dying.

Awesome. Well, we already kind of talked a little bit or hinted at this, that there might be some trade-offs to gamifying a process, especially considering that some of these suggestions for gamification can include these external motivators and also

in some company cultures, as we’ve hinted to, the idea of failure in itself is taboo because if we’re failing, then we’re not winning. And we want to be winning all the time. So how do we respond to those trade-offs, the trade-off of, you know, accepting failure as a part of the process compared with

wanting to win overall and then this idea of external versus internal motivation and balancing those two. Maybe I’ll pass it over to Brittany because you were the one who were who was talking about the external motivators before. So let’s start with that one. How do you how do you balance the external motivation with your internal motivation?

Brittany Ellich (19:56) Yeah, I think that this is a very slippery slope that it seems like most teams end up going down if they’re doing something like, like if somebody’s rewarded for doing, you know, they’re recognized for closing so many story points or for putting in all these extra hours after work, people are going to keep doing those things so that they also get those motivations, that they get those rewards. And it’s a very dangerous thing to think about how people are being motivated and recognized because that’s what you’re going to be.

reinforcing within your team. I think what you brought up with the intrinsic motivation too is a really interesting point because especially when it comes to things like L &D like Bethany talked about learning and development.

The motivation there really is, has to be to learn more, otherwise people aren’t going to actually get anything out of it. And if they don’t use that time, then that’s fine. But I think, you know, making sure that you set aside that time as like, this is specific time for this. If you don’t use it, that’s great. But don’t like try to get ahead on work during this time so that, you know, it’s fair to everybody else that is also spending their time doing this. We don’t have to expect people to put in a bunch of extra time outside of work to do this.

Yeah, I don’t know a good solution here. Maybe the good solution is to not do things like pointing stories, which luckily we don’t currently. Maybe that is part of the problem. Same thing with, you know, estimating timelines. Like they’re never really accurate. So like why even try to estimate? I know somebody needs to know how long something’s going to take, but even if I guess at it, it’s probably not going to take that long because…

of a billion different factors that lead into building software. yeah, lot of trade-offs.

Jonathan Tamsut (21:29) Yeah. I

think, think, Brady, you brought up so many good points. Like, I think the two that kind of stood out to me were like, one, you know, I think it’s important to realize, you know, if you’re that, you know, when, when you’re playing a game. So I think people, you know, you know, with games, there is a typically a singular or narrowly defined objective that you’re optimizing for at the expense of all others, you know, all other sort of things. And so like,

You know, I think, you know, you know, that could lead to a bunch of, you know, sort of perverse incentives or, you know, outcomes that aren’t necessarily desirable moral hazard. And I think that’s like important to know is like, you know, realize you’re playing a game, realize you’re optimizing for this and realize, I guess realize like, like know when to quit or, you know. And then I think the other thing is like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. This is something I’ve struggled with a lot and like,

have talked a lot about with people. And I think, for so much of my life, like doing things to impress people or to spite people, even prove people wrong, has been so much of a motivator. And I’ve recently been trying to develop more intrinsic reasons for doing things. And I think you ultimately are going to be happier when you’re kind of just doing things for the love of the game.

Brittany Ellich (22:46) I do have one thing to say related to realizing that you’re playing a game. think one thing that comes up really frequently with software development is trying to, like John had said, have the most commits or to like close as many issues or mark off as many as you do items is close as many pull requests. And that can often be a game that people are playing within their team or within their organization to try and say like, look, how good our team is. You should give us all the resources. And one thing that I found recently is I’ve been

looking into my own stats around this. And I think that I found some stats that are a little bit more important to me. And I think identifying like, okay, what are those stats actually mean? Like closing the number of pull requests doesn’t necessarily mean anything because like you could have really tiny pull requests that are just updating docs, but like it’s still a number. But then I’ve realized that the number of pull requests I’ve reviewed, like that’s actually a more interesting statistic where I can say, look at my impact across this team or how I’ve unblocked other members of

my team. So recognizing which numbers are actually meaningful to try to gamify because if you’re going to gamify something, try to find something that actually means something instead of lines of code, which we all know is a terrible metric to measure anybody by.

Erika (23:55) Yeah, that reminds me of the sort of like conversation around AI enabled software engineering and the idea that AI is a superpower or like, you know, LLM assisted coding is a superpower. And it’s like, feel like every time I hear this conversation, it’s around creating code. And you’re like, okay, like.

you know, but how long does that code take to get to production? And how many like incidents does that code cause? Like there are so many other questions that are not answered in that one very narrow view that also need to be considered for like effectiveness. Yeah, so I don’t know. It’s kind of an interesting like related conversation.

strictly gamification, but a little bit because, you know, like you said, Jonathan, like, to some extent, it always kind of feels like you’re playing some kind of a game, like working for a company, like, yeah, there’s there’s motivators, intrinsic and extrinsic. you know, a job inherently has external motivation by how much you’re paid. And when your payment is related to your performance, like,

Yeah, like how well you perform does matter directly to that extrinsic motivator. I think, yeah, it’s a tough question maybe for another day of like, you know, how we define success for ourselves. I think that’s a topic in and of itself. ⁓ But yeah, at least recognizing

Jonathan Tamsut (25:10) Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Erika (25:27) that there might be like different goals at play. And I think your point, Brittany, was like defining those goals for myself gives me agency and sort of like takes me out of the hamster wheel of the game that I see being played. So I at least know like

I am being successful in these ways regardless, or maybe hopefully in combination with how I’m expected to be successful from the company perspective.

Bethany (25:57) I think too, whenever something defines a success criteria or a reward or you’re trying to hit certain KPIs or you’re trying to hit this many commits or this many XYZ, there’s always going to be a set of people that will further game that system.

Jonathan Tamsut (26:02) like to say thank you.

Bethany (26:20) And so I think that might be another trade-off of gamification, because if you’re knowingly saying, I’m going to set a reward for doing that, there’s always going to be a subset of people that will be like, OK, well, I’m going to hyperfixate on this exact reward. And you might not get the expected results that you’re trying to get for having that reward in the first place. So I think it can definitely be a slippery slope to get.

have rewards for behavior you want to reinforce just because it can lead to unexpected consequences of what you’re actually trying to achieve.

Erika (26:56) Yeah, I think another way to kind of take back power too is like being a good human to people around you. Like, I really appreciate compliments and like celebratory moments. And like anyone can make that happen, right? Like if you see somebody who like, man, they got stuck in a terrible incident and like.

you know, they probably feel like this was awful. Like I didn’t know how to handle this or, you know, maybe they were stuck in a really tough situation, like celebrating that person for like stepping in, trying, or like trying something new. Like you can be that voice that’s like, it’s okay. You did a great job. Yeah. Or like on a pull request review, like, Hey, like, you know, this approach needs change, but like,

Here’s positive feedback as well for trying. ⁓ And I have experienced that and feel like that goes a long way.

Jonathan Tamsut (27:48) Well, Erica, think you’re doing a great job leading this podcast. celebrate you.

Erika (27:51) Thanks. I’m looking for a gold star at the end of this.

Jonathan Tamsut (27:55) Yeah,

it is funny how some people, yeah, I mean, you you deal with all, you work with all different personalities and some people are more withholding of their praise.

Erika (28:03) Well, cool. Thank you all so much for exploring this topic with me. And we’re going to move on to our fun segment at the end. So our question for today is, if you could be a character in any video game, what would it be and why? Because we’re talking about gamification and inspired by video games. So I can start.

And this my answer, I have two answers to this question, which both reveal how long it’s been since I’ve meaningfully played any video games. So the first answer is Street Fighter. I think it’s really fun to like live in that grungy universe and like kick ass all the time. So that’s my first answer. And then the other complete opposite end of the spectrum is Neopets because everything is so cute.

and like fluffy things all the time.

Jonathan Tamsut (28:52) Do

you still play Neopets? Because I know someone who’s actually pretty involved in the Neopets community. ⁓

Erika (28:58) Do you really? I know somebody who

like recently revived their account. I have not tried, but yeah, I might.

Jonathan Tamsut (29:06) It’s a robust community I’ve learned.

I can go. Yeah, I’m also not a huge gamer. mean, growing up, I played video games. But yeah, I’d pick Mario because I like that he’s in the trades. He’s a plumber. I think working with your hands is kind of cool. He’s also like an Italian guy, but he was invented by a Japanese company, which I think is kind of interesting, funny. And I watched the Super Mario Brothers movie.

Not with a child, just with my friend. We just went to the theaters and saw it. It was honestly one of the best movie-going experiences that I’ve had. I recommend the movie.

Brittany Ellich (29:44) That’s good. That would be a good one to see in theaters. I’m sad that I didn’t see that one in theaters. My answer is also reflecting on how long it’s been since I’ve played a lot of video games. I this was one of the earliest ones that I played. I used to play a lot of NMO RPGs, which are like the…

Massive multiplayer online games like World of Warcraft and one of my very favorite ones was called Star Wars Galaxies. It was like a really long time ago, but it had one of the best skill trees of any game like I’ve ever played and it was like the most dynamic and interesting skill trees and ways to like get new skills. And I still think back to it all the time when I’m like, you know, like closing out issues and like trying to knock off things on my checklist. Like I felt like it was a very satisfying way to think about building skills.

So I still think about that game a lot. So I think it’d be fun to be in that game world. Plus then you could go to be in Star Wars, could, you know, fly around on…

What rockets? No, they’re not called rockets. They’re called something else in the Star Wars. But yeah, anyway, that’s what I would. That’s yeah. Yeah, you can be a Jedi. How cool would that be? Like I want Jedi powers. That’d be so cool.

Erika (30:39) Yeah.

Shit, it’s great.

I feel like this is making me think of a GitHub feature request that would never actually fly, but maybe we could like crowdsource it as like contribution graph skins. Like if you could create like a Star Wars galaxy skin for your GitHub contributions, relive it.

Brittany Ellich (31:07) That would be really cool.

Jonathan Tamsut (31:08) We could sell them.

Bethany (31:08) I mean, we do,

we do change it to spooky theme for Halloween,

Erika (31:12) That’s true.

Brittany Ellich (31:12) Mm-hmm.

That’s true. But I like that idea of like, okay, if you get so many, you know, commits in a specific repo, then you can, yeah, like that idea. Bethany, which would you be in?

Bethany (31:24) I would probably choose like Stardew Valley. it’s just such a cute game. I, it’s my comfort game. I always go back to it and love it. So you can do so many things. You can just chill or you can go fight monsters in a cave. And I love that the duality, you

Erika (31:41) Very you. Monsters and farming. Well, thank you all listeners for tuning in to Overcommitted. If you like what you hear, please follow, subscribe, or do whatever you like to do on the podcast app of your choice. Check us out on Blue Sky, share with your friends. And as a reminder, we are still…

doing our Looks Good to Me book club and there’s plenty of time to get involved, never too late. So check out the show notes for more information on that and hope to see you there. Until next week, bye.