52: Overcommitted After One Year: Insights on Software Projects, Growth, and What's Next

Bethany (00:01) Welcome to Overcommitted Podcast, your weekly dose of real engineering conversations. I’m your host, Bethany, and I’m joined by…

Brittany Ellich (00:10) Hey, I’m Brittany.

Erika (00:12) I’m Erika

Bethany (00:14) We met while working on a team at GitHub and quickly realized we were all obsessed with getting better at what we do. So we decided to start this podcast to share what we’ve learned. We’ll be talking about everything from leveling up your technical skills to navigating your professional development, all with the goal of creating a community where engineers can learn and connect. Today on Overcommitted, we are joined by just us, really. ⁓

We thought we would take this week to celebrate the one year anniversary of Overcommitted. This is our 52nd episode. And we are just going to chat about what it’s been like, our experiences, what we’ve learned, and ⁓ what we’re doing moving forward. Almost a year ago we hit the record button on episode one, which was about imposter syndrome. ⁓ And now we’re still here. Still Overcommitted.

and obsessed with getting better at what we do. ⁓ let’s turn the question that we ask everybody on us, ⁓ what is something that we’re obsessed with learning or building right now?

Erika, you want to kick us off?

Erika (01:25) Sure. Let’s see. I have been working on improving our playbooks on our team. We’re changing our first responder schedule and revisiting a lot of our playbooks since we’re adding new people to the rotation. I’ve been

thinking a lot about what makes a playbook useful and the level of detail ⁓ that’s helpful when you’re approaching a problem. And ⁓ I have been using LLM assistants and a lot of the things that LLMs do are actually really not helpful in a playbook setting where I’m realizing that a bad or

A bad playbook is worse than no playbook at all. Like if you have like inaccurate or outdated information that’s like leading you down a rabbit hole, that’s actually worse than not saying anything. you know, LLMs like to add a lot of content and you know, look up things and try to be as helpful as possible. And also like tell you a definitive answer when playbooks are like.

this is the right way to think about this system and like here are some good things to think about. So anyway, it’s been kind of a interesting problem to crack of like how to iterate. And I think the thing that I’ve found most helpful ⁓ is like giving…

agent reviewers, different personas. So I’ve been telling it to adopt a persona of a junior engineer or a senior engineer or an engineering manager and review these playbooks. ⁓ And it’s given some interesting feedback of like, this term isn’t clear or, you know, how are you going to keep these updated? So that kind of stuff that I wouldn’t think about. Yeah, so that’s kind of what I’ve been focused on the past few days. What about you Bethany?

Bethany (03:44) ⁓ Yeah, so I love that first off. think playbooks are so, important, but so often an afterthought. And it really just makes the engineering culture better when you have playbooks that you can lean on. ⁓ I feel like since we all started in action, we were very lucky in a way to have a good playbook culture there where it was… ⁓

very much the most important thing to update playbooks. So ⁓ I love that you’re taking that on for your team and making that a better experience. ⁓ For me, I’ve been largely trying to do more vibe coding for lack of better term, like in my free time. ⁓ I’ve been, because we’ve talked to several guests, I feel, lately that have

indicated, ⁓ I can finally write JavaScript without actually writing JavaScript, and that is me. I have taken so many courses to try to learn JavaScript and CSS, and my brain just struggles to learn those things, slash having time to really dive in. So it’s been really cool to actually go after ideas that I’ve had for a while ⁓ and mock them up at the very least, but create working prototypes for things that might not have like billions of users or even thousands of users.

⁓ It’s been really freeing in a way to just make progress on these side projects I’ve had thoughts about for a while. And then in a similar vein for work, just trying to learn more about agentic engineering and the better processes with that, because it’s not going to look the same as vibe coding for projects. It’s going to be more

methodical, handheld, lots more research and stuff. And so it’s always tempting to just throw it to the agent, but I’m trying to really strike the balance of it speeding me up, but also me keeping the context. And so I’ve been reading a lot of, a lot of things that have explained the processes other folks use. So for instance, like the person who created Cloud Code posted his process and it’s a lot about

do extensive research first on this area and then write a document, then come up with a comprehensive plan and write a document and then implement that plan. And so ⁓ it’s been interesting trying out different strategies there. Brittany, what about you?

Brittany Ellich (06:23) Yeah, so I will be headed out soon to Atmosphere Conf and I have been sort of involved in the app proto space in the last couple months. And I originally started making this like Goodreads at ⁓ proto app and there’s actually several of those that already exist and a lot of them are much better than the one that I made. But it led me to I really wanted to create one that we could use for over committed for our book club community to like.

track book club things like our next reading and things like that. And I kind of led me down this rabbit hole of like, what groups look like in, ⁓ at Proto and like, how do you create a group entity and like give people different permissions to write to this group and like, how do you create roles and you know.

make sure there’s things that I’m more familiar with from working in the enterprise space at GitHub, like audit logging and things like that when there are changes. ⁓ So I’ve sort of built this entire side app that is just managing that now. And I’ll actually be presenting it at Mascurconf and talking about just like what group management looks like for the app proto space. So that’s sort of the rabbit hole I’ve been in recently trying to prepare for that.

Bethany (07:37) That’s so cool. ⁓ I think at Proto is such a cool technology. ⁓ Since talking with Nick earlier on, it’s just really cool to see people so passionate about making it a success and building on top of it. And I love that. Speaking of earlier guests, I wanted to start off with talking about

maybe what our original vision for the podcast was when we started. ⁓ Has it evolved since then for you all or has it been kind of more of the same and we’ve kept to that? ⁓ Brittany, I’ll let you start.

Brittany Ellich (08:23) ⁓ yeah, I think that we were originally meeting in our accountability buddy group just to like talk about our own goals and commitments. And I feel like that’s not something that we actually talk about much at all in over committed, ⁓ maybe a little bit, but ⁓ it has sort of evolved into like a way to check in with each other more. And I feel like we’re still doing that and we’re still keeping in touch.

And it is also involved into this way that we are sort of like networking remotely. And I feel like that has actually been, I don’t know if it’s something that we planned on purpose. We were just like, hey, like what if we interview somebody on this? And now we’ve got tons of people that we’re interviewing every single week. And that’s actually been really cool because like working remotely, it’s really hard to get to know other folks. And it turns out having a podcast is a really great way to do that. So.

I don’t think that’s something we initially set out to do, but I feel like it’s sort of what it has become and I’ve really enjoyed that. What about you, Erika?

Erika (09:22) Yeah, yeah, I guess we don’t talk about our goals directly that much, but I have learned so much through talking to other people that ⁓ my goals have changed and like improved as a result of doing this. Hearing so many different perspectives that people have and how people think about career development or different technologies. ⁓

has really like expanded my understanding. And yeah, I was always appreciative of our group and whatever we talked about. I always appreciated having a community, even if it was the three of us or four or small group settings.

I think over the past year since we’ve kind of opened it up, it’s been really encouraging how many people also seem to appreciate having that and, ⁓ you know, like opening up book club and meeting other people who are, you know, working on different things and maybe listening to the podcast and like engaging on Discord and it’s…

Yeah, it’s very cool, ⁓ like feeling like that has continued to like support each other and ⁓ that we’ve been able to kind of expand it to support others, ⁓ but still maintain the positivity and sort of like learning first approach.

Bethany (11:14) Yeah, I feel like, like in our in our group, we all had different ⁓ specialties and trusts, and it was really cool learning from each other on those. And I feel like having guests is just kind of an extension on that. ⁓ But it really has changed from just us discussing our goals to really discussing what success looks like in the industry. And it can look so different for so many people. ⁓ And I think one

One vision I had for this when we were starting was to be almost like a helping hand for people who might feel lonely in the tech world. ⁓ And that can be early in career folks or even folks later on who might just not be knowing what the next step is or feel isolated in their position. I think ⁓ we’ve really done ⁓ or the guests that we’ve had have really fulfilled that role of

having these experiences that are so interesting and so cool and sometimes it’s so diverse too. And I think it’s just been a really cool experience to see what that looks like for different people and that there’s really no failure in the industry. It is so long as you’re continuing to like better yourself and follow your interests and passions. You’re likely to end up in a really cool space. That’s, that’s good for you.

Erika (12:36) Yeah, I’ve I’ve definitely been intimidated by some of the people we’ve brought on and I’ve had that gremlin in my head saying you have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re going to get on this conversation and they’re going to look at you like you’re completely dumb and like you’re speaking nonsense. And that has never happened once. Every time we’ve had somebody and I’ve had that thought in my head, we get on and it’s a lovely conversation. I learned something new. I

Yeah, ⁓ so I think that’s also been kind of like encouraging from a meta perspective. Like the more times that happens, the more confidence I build in talking to people. And ⁓ yeah, so that’s also been cool.

Bethany (13:25) I agree completely. think everyone has been so, so kind and generous with their time. ⁓ I think we’ve had some really cool people. Honestly, I cannot think of a single guest that hasn’t been super cool and I would not be immediate friends with. It’s just been, it’s been, I feel like we’ve been so lucky, honestly. ⁓ And it’s really cool that we’ve… ⁓

We’ve been able to find this community of folks that are curious and interested in learning. Like you mentioned, Erika, and the Discord, ⁓ and folks who are just so cool. I feel like I keep saying that, but I am always so blown away by what people are doing or learning or building. ⁓ And it’s so inspiring.

Brittany Ellich (14:16) Yeah, I feel like this has also been happening at the same time as the industry is changing a lot very rapidly. So I don’t think we’re like an AI podcast, but a lot of our topics end up being about AI because that’s like what people.

And it’s been really interesting, I think, to have this focus on like community and like people alongside learning with AI. Cause I think the more I learn like how to use AI and stuff, the more I’m like, wow, like that people element is actually more important than it ever has been before. Because like it’s pulling, you know, it’s pulling people away from talking with each other and that is not great. you know, focusing on building these more like person focused relationships has been really nice.

Bethany (15:01) That’s such a great way to put it. The people aspect is always going to be the most important ⁓ or that human aspect, especially if you’re building software for humans ⁓ and just learning from other people and stuff too. ⁓ Is there anything that was harder than you all imagined ⁓ when we got started about the podcast journey?

I can go first if y’all need to noodle on this. ⁓ So I think for me, it’s just how to interview. Like I’ve listened to a lot of tech podcasts and I’ve listened to, I mean, a lot of podcasts full stop, but there’s really nothing out there that just teaches you how to be a good interviewer. ⁓ It’s something that it feels like you have to build organically, but ⁓ it’s been…

Brittany Ellich (15:35) Y’all go for it. Let’s see it.

Bethany (16:02) I think that’s been the trickiest part, being like, okay, we need to make sure that we highlight our guests and give them a real nice platform to talk about what they’re into and showcase their personality and skills and such. But then also while making sure that our personalities shine through and we’re also providing those glimmers as well.

And I think it’s been an interesting balance of trying to figure that out. ⁓ But yeah, if anyone knows the course or something that teaches you how to interview people or has some feedback, please let me know.

Brittany Ellich (16:45) Yeah, I would love that. I’ve been thinking about that recently too. It’s like, man, am I a good interviewer? Maybe do I need to like learn how to interview people or get like some assistance on that? I think one thing that I found that is more difficult than I expected is ⁓ asking people to be guests.

It’s like this weird and at the same time it’s not that hard. We have a lot of people that are like lined up and we got a lot of folks that are guests now but I think that was a thing that was really hard for me like initially. Like I remember when I was reaching out to you both when I was asking our old CEO Thomas to be on and like this the imposter syndrome I had while doing that was awful. I was like my gosh can I can I actually like

Can I reach out and DM somebody about this? Is this okay? And I think it’s been really interesting because I think people are also afraid to ask to be guests. I’ve noticed like there are some people that come to us and are like, man, I really love to be on the podcast. Is that okay for me to ask or something like so there’s like a weird thing on both sides. think like if you want to be on somebody’s podcast, you should just ask because they are probably more than willing to let you be on it. ⁓ But also ⁓ if you’re, know,

interviewing other people also just ask. Worst thing they say is no. I don’t think anybody’s gonna be like, ha, no, definitely not. That podcast is terrible that I’ve probably never heard of or listened to or anything. Like, it’s a very easy way for folks to use their time. In worst case, like you send them the scheduling link and they don’t schedule and that’s fine. Like, it’s fine. ⁓ Yeah, so that’s been kind of interesting to learn.

Erika (18:23) Yeah, I don’t know if anything comes to mind aside from like the production of the podcast, which like admittedly, Brittany has done more of than either of us. So like, I really have no room to say anything. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, I think like all the admit like I I feel like such a slacker every time I like check the email or like, you know, check on things like I just kind of like forget about it. And then I’m like,

Oh, wait, there’s like all this admin stuff that Britney is doing behind the scenes that I’m like, ah, I’m so sorry. So, yeah, I think like when we started this, were kind of like not expecting anyone to listen to it. And I think we’ve decided to like put in some effort to like bring it to people. And again, like most of that has been Britney.

Yeah, but even that level of like, we’re not trying to monetize it, we’re not trying to go viral or anything, but pure like maintenance state has, I think, yeah, like it from an outsider’s perspective, it seems like more than more than a trivial amount of work.

Brittany Ellich (19:43) There’s a lot of little steps, but for what it’s worth Riverside also does a lot of the heavy lifting of like editing and there’s a lot of times there’s I’ve gone like a month or two without posting online or something, especially early on. I was like, we don’t need to post this every week, right? Like actually, I probably should. But at least try to like make the effort when we have a guest on at the very least.

Erika (19:55) Yeah.

⁓

Yeah.

Bethany (20:07) Absolutely. The admin stuff has been a lot and a lot on Brittany’s shoulders. ⁓ So definitely, definitely appreciate her for for really paving, like helping us get this to people. So if you’re listening to it, thank Brittany. Awesome. Yeah, it’s I think there’s been definitely a lot of ⁓

Erika (20:23) Yeah.

Yeah.

Bethany (20:36) unexpected things, but it’s been really cool that we just all were like, yeah, let’s do this. And we went for it and we committed to it, maybe over committed to it. But ⁓ yeah, curious, like looking back, how has this last year been for you all? How have you like grown at both maybe in careers and like

through the podcast. Have you seen anything that’s directly, you can tie to insights there?

Brittany Ellich (21:15) I have been going through the promo cycle this last year. ⁓ And it’s been interesting. I don’t think that having a podcast is like a way to get promoted. I think in some cases, it can almost even be like a detractor if people are like, well, you’re spending all this time on that instead of on, you know,

other things. But I do think that it probably sets us up a little bit better for future opportunities, potentially. I don’t know, none of us have been really looking for jobs, also, likely. So we’ll see if that’s actually the case. But I feel like it’s been useful for, you know, like I said, you know, networking with folks remotely. We have a whole big Discord group now of like 160 people that we’re chatting with regularly and, you know.

getting to talk about like, man, this thing sucks in tech or like, is, you know, this is things that are going well. And I feel like that’s been really good for accountability and just me keeping up with like the books that I read. Like I joined y’all’s book club mostly because I know it would shame me into reading books and same with like doing the podcast. I’m like, this will shame me into continuing to do, you know, podcast editing or posting or whatever. And it’s been, that part’s been successful. I like, I, I.

optimized for public shaming, I guess, in my learning. For better or worse.

Bethany (22:38) I think that’s so true. I think there’s an amount of uncomfiness that’s always good to aim for. And so I think similarly, I am a very anxious person, especially social anxiety I just really, really struggle with. I just have a mental block whenever I’m confronted with new people or talking with them. If they approach me, I’m fine, but approaching them I always struggle with and I feel like…

this podcast has kind of forced me to talk to new people on regular basis and ⁓ not get wrapped up in the anxiety, but really try to have a clear head so you can like follow along what they’re saying, ask follow up questions and ⁓ get better at just talking with people, especially technically. feel like listening to podcasts when I was a younger engineer was such a, such a help for my imposter syndrome because

It was refreshing when people would say, I don’t know the answer or, I don’t know the answer to this or ask maybe questions that people would find simple. ⁓ And so it’s been a good opportunity on the other side, like making the podcast side to practice those conversation skills and build those in network. Like you were saying earlier, Brittany, ⁓ and I feel like I have

had more success with talking with people, like at the Pragmatic Summit, I actually went up to people and talked to them more and I felt so proud of myself. Just because that’s not something I would have typically done without at least having a buddy with me or anything like that. So yeah, I think that’s been a good growth moment for me personally.

Alright, well, let’s look ahead. ⁓ Do you all have any thoughts of what comes next here? Are we gonna keep on going with the same formats or anything you all are thinking that’s coming up?

Erika (24:48) The only thing I’m thinking about right now is automating some of our productionizing. Yeah. Yeah.

Brittany Ellich (24:54) Yes! Make the robots do it. Yeah, there’s a

lot of little tiny pieces, but it would be nice to connect them all with things other than our own mouse. Nice.

Erika (25:02) Yeah, but that’s not like obvious to

anyone except for us.

Brittany Ellich (25:07) True. Yeah, I don’t know if there’s anything specifically that I want to change. I do want to do like a group episode like us. I feel like we’ve started doing that the last couple months where we do one with just us and check in about whatever topic. I think that those are fun.

more people, more guests, more folks to talk to and thinking just about like how much the industry has changed from when we started this to now. can’t even imagine what it’s going to look like a year.

Erika (25:40) I guess we’ve talked about doing like learning sessions in the discord too. Like we did, we used to do some like short form book clubs and stuff. And like, I don’t know if people are like working on projects or like wanna like practice a conference talk or something like that. Like I think it’d be cool to open that up and have more opportunities for sort of like those group connections in there. Cause again, that’s like stuff that we’ve done for each other, especially like

First time speaking in a conference or something and you want to like do a dry run and get feedback. I’d love for the community to be a safe place for that kind of stuff.

Bethany (26:21) totally agree. think those are great ideas. ⁓ I agree with either automating or helping out more with admin work. Being a more active participant there, think, I mean, just sometimes all the extracurriculars gets overwhelming. ⁓ it’s hard to prioritize something unless you actually put it down and really commit to it. So I think… ⁓

making sure to do that and be better about that and more present will be good. We have scheduling for our episodes, so we could do something similar with editing and stuff for myself or try calendar blocking. ⁓ I love the idea of community building and making that ⁓ a really good spot because that’s what we’re after, not really monetizing or ⁓ anything like that, but just making it a cool place for cool engineers to…

talk and grow and whatnot. So I think those are great. I think I don’t have much to add to those. ⁓ I am excited about the new format we’re introducing. ⁓ We are trying to go to more of a panel approach rather than we take turns asking questions. ⁓ And I think…

experimenting with that is going to be interesting to make it a good ⁓ fit for us, a good fit for our guests. ⁓

Just seeing what works best will be exciting. So it’s been great to get feedback from people and see what we can do better to make ourselves a good podcast for the listeners.

Alright, well, are you all ready for our fun segment? I gave Eric and Brittany homework for this one. ⁓ Okay, so we are doing our first annual Overcomitted Superlatives! Woo! So, ⁓ I figured we would go around…

Brittany Ellich (28:17) already.

Bethany (28:36) give and give the other two folks some superlatives for maybe some traits or whatnot or impact they’ve had in the podcast. Do you all like me to go first or do you all want to go first?

Erika (28:52) I can go. ⁓ mine are like the first ones that came to mind, which I was like,

Bethany (28:53) Okay, cool.

Erika (28:59) I probably could have like gone deeper and made these more clever, but ⁓ these are the first things that came to mind for me. So Bethany, I’m dubbing you the most likely to recommend a tool that I can’t live without, some kind of CLI or library that makes my life so much better. yeah, so that’s that’s your superlative. And then Brittany, you are the most likely to

Make me rethink my entire like second brain inner loop workflow like personal workflow Yeah, you’re like always Changing and then I’m like, oh that’s such a good idea. I like I need to do that and then my entire like workflow changes So those are those are mine for you, too

Bethany (29:52) it’s so true. I love those.

Erika (29:55) Ha!

Brittany Ellich (29:55) Yeah, that’s great. I’m proud of that superlative because everybody should be always making them better.

Erika (29:58) Yeah.

Bethany, do want to go next?

Bethany (30:07) Sure. Okay, for Erika, I had to these down so I remembered them. For Erika, I’m giving you Most Likely to Ask, But Why, though? Because you’re just so curious and inquisitive and you really want to dive in to what people are saying and ⁓ really understand someone and I think that’s really cool.

And Brittany, you are most likely to accidentally become an influencer if you’re not already. Because you’re just so genuinely sociable and so eager to share your thoughts and wisdom. I think that the way you are able to distill your thoughts is so awesome. people really resonate with it. So very cool.

Brittany Ellich (30:56) I love that. I think my goal in life is to not become an influencer, so I think it would be a large accident if that were the case. It would only be accidental. Yeah. That’s great. ⁓ Very insightful. Okay, so I wrote down, I also had to write them down. So for Erika, I wrote, most likely to have a template for that.

Erika (31:03) You only I you accidental.

Brittany Ellich (31:21) ⁓ Because I feel like you do a good job of like templatizing things and like making them repeatable probably like with your playbooks, you know, like working on that and making something better, which is fantastic. I appreciate that. Especially like your book club templates. They’re incredible. And I like that. And then for Bethany, I wrote down most likely to automate it because I feel like you’re very good at like finding ways to automate things. Speaking of which, speaking of our admin duties, I need your help.

desperately. ⁓ But I feel like I’ve learned a lot from you about like how you like, for example, the GitHub actions automation that you shared that was even before the podcast that I’m still using to this day to like automate my brag doc, or like seeing how you put together your dot files or, you know, I feel like you’ve done a lot. You always think about like, how could I make this easier by doing less? ⁓ And I really appreciate that.

Bethany (32:17) Being lazy finally worked out for me. Yes. ⁓ awesome, awesome. Well, I’m excited to see what our second annual Superlatives will bring. ⁓ It’s always a tradition if you append annual to it, so now it is. ⁓ But it has just been so awesome doing this with y’all, ⁓ and I am so excited for this next year.

Brittany Ellich (32:19) Yes, best lazy developer.

Erika (32:48) See you.

Brittany Ellich (32:49) same.

Bethany (32:50) Yeah, and thanks to my dad. Shout out to my dad for being a great champion and cheerleader and ⁓ being so supportive.

Erika (33:02) Yeah,

when’s he gonna come on the podcast?

Bethany (33:05) Yeah! ⁓ Yeah! Yeah! Let’s see! Let’s see! Alright. Well, thank you listeners so much for tuning in to Overcommitted. If you like what you hear, please follow, subscribe, or do whatever it is you like to do on the podcast app of your choice. Check us out on Blue Sky and share with your friends. Till next week, bye!

Brittany Ellich (33:06) Open invite, Bethany’s dad.

Erika (33:11) you

Brittany Ellich (33:13) Huh.

Erika (33:31) Bye