58: There are no shortcuts | Craft & career growth with Salma Alam-Naylor

Erika (00:00) Welcome to the Overcommitted Podcast, your weekly dose of real engineering conversations. I’m your host today, Erika. I met my co-host while working on a team at GitHub and we quickly discovered we were all obsessed with getting better what we do. So we decided to start this podcast to share what we’ve learned. We’ll be talking about everything from leveling up your technical skills to navigating your professional development, all with the goal of creating a community where developers can learn and connect.

Today on Overcommitted, we are joined by Salma Alam-Nailer. Salma is a web developer, international speaker, tech educator, and entertainer. Before she ever wrote a line of professional code, she graduated from the Royal Northern College of Music, played in bands, composed, taught music, and even did a stint in musical comedy. She pivoted into tech in 2014 and has been on an absolute tear since then.

She is a GitHub star, a former Microsoft MVP, and spent five years as a partnered Twitch streamer where she built a live chat-controlled game that her community could play in real time. She recently wrapped up that chapter and is now head of developer education at Nordcraft. She also has a newsletter called the Weird Wide Web Hole where she sends subscribers four strange links every Thursday. No further explanation needed on that one.

Salma, welcome to Overcommitted.

Salma (01:29) Hi Erika, thank you for having me and welcoming me to the podcast.

Erika (01:33) To kick us off, what’s something you’re currently building or learning that has you excited right now? And this can be tech or it can be a drum piece that you’re learning, anything that lights you up currently.

Salma (01:47) For the first time in over a decade, I’m actually writing a new song that I’m going to release in the next month or so. And it’s hard, like, so I did composition at music college, know, writing music was my whole thing. I wanted to be a film composer actually, initially. And I think I still do, but that’s a long story. And for all the parents out there, as you know, when you have a child,

your life and things that you want to do kind of like go out of the window for a while. My child is eight now and I think I’m starting to get a little bit more time to myself to do my hobbies and what I want to do. But I felt like there’s been lots of music inside me since the pandemic actually, the early pandemic, I’ve had stuff inside of me but it hasn’t manifested.

But now ⁓ I’m inspired and I’m doing it. I’m ready and it’s almost finished and I’m gonna make a music video and I’m gonna release it. I already have a new website and a domain and everything that I’m gonna put it on. So that’s what I’m really excited about actually at the moment.

Erika (02:52) That’s so cool. I can’t wait to hear it. Yeah, that’s gotta be, I know that feeling where you have something inside and you wanna get it out, you wanna get it to the world. And yeah, how cool that you’re kind of reconnecting with that and bringing it to life.

Salma (03:03) Yeah,

it’s giving me life actually. And I feel more like myself than I ever have in the last 10 years. So this is a good thing.

Erika (03:13) Yeah, awesome. And that’s something that, you know, kids will look at and know for years to come that you’re doing this too.

Salma (03:22) My

son actually, I’ve showed obviously my family previews of the song and my son is walking around the house singing it already. So that’s a good sign.

Erika (03:31) That’s good. My daughter is solidly in the mommy don’t sing phase. ⁓ Like, anytime I open my eyes, it’s like, no, stop. It’s my turn. Yeah. Well, awesome. So you sort of made your name doing something that, to me personally, incredibly terrifying, which is live coding. This is, you know,

Salma (03:36) no.

then there.

Erika (03:53) where you built an international following, you describe it as something that transformed your career in tech. So was it intimidating for you? Or did your kind of background as a performer make it feel natural?

Salma (04:06) think right at the beginning, yes, it was intimidating. It was scary to go live. remember like the first time, the first few times I went live, was, I mean, it wasn’t as scary at that point, because there were like three people watching me. So it’s just, I don’t know, weird. But quickly I realized that when people are watching you and you are there,

pressing the buttons and speaking and stuff, you’re the one in control. And I could control how long I stayed live, what I was doing, what the topics of conversation were. And as soon as you realize you have the captive audience and you are in control, then it doesn’t really become a big deal anymore. And I do obviously attribute that to the fact that I was a teacher, I was on stage, I was a performer. And so naturally throughout my whole life,

Erika (04:31) Mm-hmm.

Salma (04:55) I’d been in front of big audiences. I was also actually in a folk band in my early twenties and I played some very big festivals and stuff for thousands of people. The light’s so bright that you couldn’t even see who was out there. So a lot of the time actually when I was streaming, I kind of felt like I was back on stage doing that. And I must say, I do miss it, but I’m going to answer why I stopped in your next question.

Erika (05:06) Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that’s good to kind of know, you know, where you started and sort of your experience at the very beginning. then I’m sure, yeah, you’re already talking about it kind of transformed for you ⁓ throughout the years and then, yeah, you stopped. can you kind of walk me through the journey, how it changed and then your decision to end it?

Salma (05:40) Ahem.

I mean, I think the reasons are many fold, but the main reason was, so I initially like broke into DevRel or whatever people call it now because I became recognized as an educator and developer through Twitch. And I met people who knew people and stuff. And in the early days of that part of my career,

it was still pretty much locked down everywhere. And so it was a very valuable skill to be able to get on stream and talk to an audience of developers. Previously, before 2020, you would have been going to events or speaking on stages. And the landscape of DevRel really, really changed then. And being a prolific…

good streamer was seen as being a valuable asset to a dev rel team at the time. And, you know, and I got my first two dev rel jobs basically because I was a good streamer and lots of people watched me and I was building fun stuff and we were having a great time and it was different to all the other streams that were going on at the time who that were very kind of a lot, you know, I think it still happens now, but there’s a lot of people who will turn a stream on and

leave it there for six hours and just pretty much go about their day. But I made sure to put on a show every time I went live. It was more of a time box, like we’re gonna do this today and I’ve got all these flashy things and flashy lights and we’re gonna be entertained and you’re gonna learn something at the same time. So rather than like more co-working, it was just, I’m going to do a thing. But as time went on and you know,

Erika (07:21) Mm-hmm.

Salma (07:25) we kind of moved out of lockdowns and COVID, and COVID stuff. Businesses and DevRel teams and marketing teams in particular wanted to make sure that those activities were providing value. And DevRel Developer Relations is notoriously hard to provide concrete value, especially monetary value ⁓ evidence.

because of the nature of the activities. And, you know, I was in departments where, you I was streaming three times a week and people were counting my views and ⁓ audience numbers and, you know, really just to try and justify me seemingly having too much fun in my day job because it was fun for me as well.

Erika (08:11) Yeah.

Salma (08:12) And then when those numbers started to be tracked and things, then the pressure came a little bit more. But I really had very little control over those kinds of numbers because you have to take into consideration time zones. The discovery of your streams on things like Twitch. Notoriously, Twitch didn’t really spotlight software and development streams, especially in the early days.

And then it became kind of like, oh, well, what’s the point in doing it anymore? Because I don’t want to get fired. And, you know, it was like, I was told very specifically one time, we pay your salary, so you shouldn’t be having fun on Twitch. And it was like, hmm, okay. And then AI came, right? And then it was like,

people aren’t tuning in to these kinds of streams anymore. And it’s funny, I haven’t streamed, I didn’t stream much in 2025. And my brand of streaming was always based on the struggle that I went through to show an authentic, genuine experience. And a lot of the viewers would always comment that, I thought it was just me that struggled with that and things like that. So I wanted to make it really raw and real. But now things have changed and…

number one, people are not coding in the way I used to code on stream much anymore. And so I think if I went live now and did what I always did, I would get a lot of silly questions about why are you doing it like that? And why aren’t you using AI? Why aren’t you just generating your app rather than the hand coding your HTML tags and things. And I just don’t think I wanted to deal with that. But also I think that the landscape of what developers want has changed.

Erika (09:43) Yes.

Yeah.

Salma (09:57) Back then, when I first started, it was about, we can’t go outside, so let’s find a way to hang out together and find a community together. And now life is pretty much back to normal. And so it’s kind of flipped the other way around and people don’t tune into streams in their workday anymore because they’re back in the office. And I’m not saying that I just stopped streaming because my numbers went down or people aren’t watching me, but it’s like the landscape is so different to what it was in 2020.

that I just felt that it was time to remove that cognitive overload of I’m a streamer from my brain and from my desk. You know, I got rid of my streaming PC, I sold that and I streamlined my office. And it was just time for something else. And I’m fond of that time, but I also feel like it had run its course. And I think that’s also a good example to set for.

Erika (10:26) Yeah.

Salma (10:51) the community out there. It’s like when things aren’t serving you anymore, when things don’t make you excited anymore, it’s okay to stop and move on to something else. And who knows, maybe if I hadn’t have stopped streaming, maybe I wouldn’t be writing a new song right now. you know, it all, it all, it’s all connected.

Erika (11:05) way.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, there’s like so much there. And I think my first reaction is like a twinge of sadness, not for you necessarily. yeah, I definitely see the value in like, like turning over a new chapter, starting something, but in order to start something, you do have to stop something, you know.

paying no attention to the name of this podcast being overcommitted where you keep adding to the plate and never take anything away, I think in order for it to be sustainable, you do have to take something away. it’s sad to me that the sort of like pressure of monetization and also scale are kind of the first two things that you mentioned as taking the fun away.

I mean, and also AI. like, mentioning the developer landscape, like, I’m sitting here thinking, like, I love watching people write line by line and explain their thinking step by step. Like, yeah, I would never tune in to somebody auto-generating code. Like, to me, it’s like, why? Why would I watch that?

Salma (12:21) This is another thing though that I discovered whilst I was streaming. There’s a large proportion of people out there who have been led to believe that there are shortcuts to ⁓ building stuff and this kind of thing. The amount of people that came in to the stream and asked me, how do I become a web developer in six weeks? And how can I get a job in six weeks? I’m a beginner. And it’s like, that’s a whole, whole different ball game. And

Erika (12:39) Hmm.

Salma (12:47) you need to be able to put in the work. And I think that’s another thing that I wanted to demonstrate, putting in the work does reap you benefits. And I think, I don’t know, it’s the landscape of, the developer landscape is quite a strange one at the moment. And I feel that so many things are being pushed.

by big companies that like the real authenticity of the real people, the real developers who working in this industry is kind of getting like overshadowed by this big stuff and this desire for shortcut. And every company and every tool is trying to provide you with a ⁓ quick win and a shortcut. And I just don’t believe it’s sustainable. And I guess I didn’t want to have to keep explaining that.

over and over to the more and more people who were coming in to the stream also to have that kind of discussion. And I felt like maybe I could direct rather than to talk about that to like 60 people at a time, I could direct those kinds of efforts to something that might have a bit more impact. might scale a bit more. It sounds a bit silly, but I think you do when you want to make an impact like

I think you do have to be strategic about how you do it and when you want to help people I think that’s it sounds silly but strategy also comes into that and like how can you reach the right people and how can you give them the help that they need and streams are very ephemeral you know that they exist for that time and people aren’t really going back to watch streams either

So that’s like four hours of effort and live show and education that yes, I could cut it up into a YouTube video, which I did experiment with for a couple of years, but like nobody watches those either because you have to be there for the live show. You know, because of all the stuff that was going on on my stream with all the things raining down and the alerts and the sounds, that gives you the real experience of the stream. And you kind of couldn’t communicate that in like a cut up clipped video either. And so,

the ephemeral-ness of streams, think it’s not a wasted opportunity, but it’s also how can you take that and direct that energy to something that’s not so ephemeral and not so fleeting, if it’s really important to you, do you know?

Erika (15:11) Yeah, well, let’s dig into that because you won a Community Creator Award from Jamstack in 2021 and…

Salma (15:23) That’s an old word, isn’t it? No one really talks about

that anymore.

Erika (15:28) And part of what’s cited in your award is your commitment to helping the community with improving on diversity and also reducing the toxicity of internet communities.

What does that mean to you in practice? know, that’s, yeah, what do those kinds of words mean and what did that mean to you at the time or now?

Salma (15:57) It was just really about being nice to everyone and anyone and regardless of their attitude or demeanor as well, know, little things like people would come into the stream and say, why are you using this framework? Why are you not using that framework? And here is a great opportunity to actually discuss why that’s a silly question. And also have you considered that maybe

Erika (15:59) Mm.

Salma (16:23) when you ask this type of question, what other kind of things are you implying? Like, oh, you’re using a bad framework. That means you’re not good enough. And what was really nice was that everyone who was watching at the time as well would always try to educate that person in the same way and a great conversation will come out of it. it’s like the tech pits so many things against each other.

It’s always X versus Y. It’s always this versus that. This is better than this. You should be using this now. Otherwise you’re being left behind. like those things are irrelevant. It’s what you do with the tools that you use and it’s the outcomes and the impact that you make. And I guess that was the underlying message of everything. And that’s why so many times I just started new websites with an HTML file. And of course I would get like…

Questioned for that all the time. Why aren’t you using a framework? So I don’t need one. Like I don’t need one and here’s a great opportunity to tell you why and And it’s also as well as those kind of things. It’s just about modeling the good behavior Not getting involved in in all the drama. It’s weird. Actually I haven’t maybe because I’ve muted so many things on the internet But I don’t really see much tech drama these days, which is quite nice

Erika (17:24) Yeah.

Salma (17:47) And it’s about like distancing yourself from that. Cause people would always try and ask me, what do you think about this? I’m like, I have no opinion actually. I’m not going to get involved. And you know, maybe that’s also a thing that comes with age. I don’t know. But so it’s about being nice, modeling the good behavior, not getting involved in the drama, and then also celebrating the good stuff, lifting people up. And a lot of that comes with working behind the scenes with people. And it’s not

about doing it in public. You know, I’ve mentored quite a few people. I’ve connected people with people to get jobs. I’ve, you know, helped them with their portfolio and their resumes and things like that. And, and obviously, those are the kind of things that are going to make like impact for individuals, which I’ve always prioritized. Like I’ve always said, like, if I can help just like one person.

do something that they wanna do and achieve something and to help them on their way with whether it’s just introducing someone to someone or looking at their website, then by all means I’m gonna do that because people did that kind of stuff for me early on. I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t get connected from one streamer to her friend who was hiring. And…

And I just want to give that back because people deserve the chance and it’s hard out there, especially with all of these algorithmic feeds and people gravitating towards the drama and stuff. Like your portfolio is not a drama piece and no one really cares, but actually I’m going to help people care because I think people deserve that level of respect. And it’s just…

Erika (19:27) Yeah.

Salma (19:31) I don’t know, like it’s hard to say these are the rules I live by because obviously every situation is different, but I just try to be nice and helpful to people whenever I can, whenever they ask me. And that pays dividends in the end, you know, because maybe I’ll get a favor again one day, you know? And it’s not as if I do it to get favors back, but like everyone helps each other, like behind the scenes, everyone.

comes together in this kind of underground community to help each other, which I think is wonderful. And I just don’t think I’d be here without that either. So ⁓ thank you to anyone who helped me out.

Erika (20:11) Well, yeah, that shows some real strength of character too to get those kinds of comments and then not shrink or not, not really, I don’t know, return the anger or frustration. yeah, I mean, I also used to be a teacher and I always found that in my classrooms there was

always one kid, like there’s always that one kid in the class who’s like acting crazy. You you come to class every day and you’re like, well, I know it’s going to be fill in the blank, you know, and you kind of like expect that as a part of life. But yeah, I mean, on the Internet, it feels amplified to a certain degree because you don’t have that face. You don’t have that that personal connection. But it sounds like part of what you did is build that personal connection with these people. And that’s

Salma (20:56) it

you

Erika (21:03) really the only way to move forward with those things.

Salma (21:07) Don’t get me wrong, like at the beginning, it was sometimes tough when I would get, you know, sexually harassed on Twitch streams and stuff, you know, and it was tough. And I was, you know, I was a lot younger then and I hate to say it, but I think it helped me develop a resilience for that ⁓ as time went on.

Erika (21:16) and then.

Yeah.

Salma (21:30) And it’s just about remembering that you’re in control. And these people who are acting in this way, they are the ones who are hurt. They are the ones who are in need. And I kind of started treating people like that, like a child, because children don’t know things. And they’ll say things and you have to kind of, you know, educate them and talk to them sensitively and with compassion.

and with curiosity and I think becoming a parent, when I first started streaming, my child was two. And I think, you learn a lot when they start to become their own person. And so I think in tandem, being a parent, learning how to deal with things like that, coupled with the teaching experience and just the resilience that it helped me build through doing it for so long. I think all of those things helped.

people will ask me, know, how did you do this? How did you do that? What’s your recipe for this? What’s your rules? And it’s like, well, it just happened and things just happen and everyone’s situation is gonna be different. So don’t take any of my advice really. Find your own own way. I don’t know, maybe you can, but I always feel strange giving out advice because I just, things just happened and I dealt with them and I grew as a result.

Erika (22:49) Well, I will, I am going to ask you for your advice. I guess for people who want to make the internet a better place, what would you tell them as far as like, can you do this as a part of your day job? Is this something that you have to do, you know, through open source or something else? Like what’s kind of your thoughts there?

Salma (22:53) Okay.

The tough thing is, that the, on the internet today, it is tough because of the mental overheads of everything that you see and that is put in front of you, which can exhaust you greatly. And so the first bit of advice I would say is make your own experience of the internet better first.

and you know, unfollow things that make you rage inside, ⁓ mute profusely, block and don’t engage with any of those things that are taking up your time and causing negativity. And then I think once you do that, and it’s hard, right, it’s hard, but once you do that, I think then you make for yourself the

thinking space and the breathing space to think about the next thing. What could be the next thing? What could be better for us? You know, avoid algorithmic infinite scrolls and and then your brain will recover from the damage that that’s doing and then you’ll have more time and energy to think about what you want to get out of it because maybe what I want the internet

to be is not what the next person wants the internet to be. But the joy of the internet is that it can be anything for anyone. There are so many different corners of the internet that you can explore and find a home on, you know, IndieWeb, you know, like weird links and weird places and forums and small little communities, you know, and it’s gonna be different for everyone. But ultimately it starts with…

curating your own experience, you know, maybe move to RSS instead of, you know, infinitely scrolling, TikTok or whatever. But like it, it’s been, it’s been forced on us for so long now. I think social media is probably one of the most damaging things that has happened to the internet really. And I actually remember watching the documentary or some video about the, person who invented infinite scroll and they deeply regret it.

Erika (25:30) Mm.

Salma (25:30) And

so I think we, unfortunately though, that the tech industry and all those kinds of products on the internet have created for us these problems and now they’re trying to sell us the solutions, wellness apps, dopamine, detoxes and whatnot. it’s the whole, it kind of mirrors the whole.

Erika (25:44) Yeah.

Salma (25:55) you know, as I’m a middle-aged woman and I’m now, if I see adverts, they are targeting my age and depleting estrogen and no, wrinkles. These are problems that don’t exist. These are manufactured problems that you are now being sold a solution to and the internet and social media is no different. And it makes you feel bad when you have no right to be made to be feel like that.

So curate your own experience and then, and also understand that there are no shortcuts to any of this and ⁓ it can’t just be made better overnight. But it apparently, I shared a video in my newsletter today and apparently it only takes 25 % of a mass of a group to tip the scales the other way to something better or something different.

And with that in mind, if we can just get 25 % of us to curate a better internet, to create a better experience in our little corner of just 25%, then maybe change will happen.

Erika (27:00) Well, that gives me hope.

Salma (27:02) That was the title of the video actually, there is hope. There is actually hope.

Erika (27:04) Yeah,

there is hope. Well, speaking of no shortcuts and carving your own path, I mean, your career journey is taking so many turns. And my first question for you is how do you balance all of your creative pursuits between your writing, your recording, your speaking, your coding and

Do you enjoy one more than any of the others?

Salma (27:35) Now again, there are no rules for how I operate. So, tell you a little story. Whenever I want a new tattoo, I want it now and I have made the decision, so I’m gonna get it. And obviously I have to book in with my guy and it takes a few months, but I have made the decision and I’m gonna do it. That is how I operate with every creative pursuit. I suddenly get the inspiration and I’m gonna do it.

Like at the end of 2025 I said, right, I’m going to redesign my website. So I went hard in two weeks, redesigned my whole website and I lost sleep. I dreamt about it. I worked all hours on the weekends and the evenings because I wanted to do it and I did it. That’s the job done. Great. It doesn’t last for months and months and months. It just happens. Next. Oh, I want to make a website for my drum transcriptions. Right. I’ll do that in a week.

Erika (28:26) Mm-hmm.

Salma (28:32) I’ll just do it and I’ll spend all this ridiculous time on it. Obviously I had to have a break in between my website redesign and the drum website because otherwise I would have died. That’s the thing. I do these stints of thing and then I have quite a bit of a break and I make sure to take care of myself. And then I do another thing. And then now my next thing is I’m writing a song now. So, and I’m gonna do it and I have to do it and I’m gonna give myself this time.

Erika (28:39) Yeah.

I’m going to go to

Salma (28:57) I’m gonna release it by the end of April. I’m gonna do it and I’m gonna plan my life around it. I plan my life around getting to do these creative things and Maybe I’ll skip a yoga class on that normal day because I really have to get to this point It’s like I do like little sprints with myself if you can call it that And so I I don’t balance whilst I’m doing the thing

Erika (29:12) God.

Salma (29:22) because I am in the moment and I don’t want the energy to leave me. can’t leave it or I will implode. So don’t follow my advice because it’s probably not very good, but that’s just how I’ve always operated. And then maybe I’ll be like barren of ideas for six months, but then when the next one strikes, I will go 100 % in it full-time, obviously work, parenting, exercise, all that other stuff.

Erika (29:32) Mm-hmm.

Salma (29:50) but that will be the only thing on my mind. And that’s just how I operate.

Erika (29:55) No, I mean,

this is very freeing for me because I feel like this is also how I operate is, but I don’t think I’ve thought of it that way. But I need that push. I almost need that pressure of the mental coach in my head being like, no, you need to do it. You need to get this done and then this done and then this done. And if I stop, it’s never gonna get done.

Salma (30:21) because otherwise it will consume me. If it goes on for six months, I try to keep as few things in my brain as possible because I have a very multi-threaded brain, but there’s a limit. And so I take stuff out to put more stuff in. if I, because if I,

Erika (30:29) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Salma (30:50) try and do a creative project over like six months, I’ll have another idea and another idea and another idea and I want to start it and the other thing will get pushed out, which means I don’t finish anything. But I like to finish things and just have them done. Even if they’re not finished finished, even if they’re slightly imperfect, they’re still like, I’m gonna say that’s done. And I think that’s one of the reasons why I stopped streaming as well because I wanted that to go away and be done.

Erika (31:01) Yes.

Salma (31:14) so I can do the next thing. Because it was always on my mind. It was always there thinking, oh, I should do a stream. Oh, but I know that when I turn my computer on, that everything’s going to be needing updates and it’s going to break everything, which is another hour of my time loss. You know, there’s all these like layers of like cognitive threads and overload that crowd your minds and kind of make things a little bit hazy. And so…

That’s why I like to just do something and then it’s done. And then who knows if I’ll ever write another song again, but I’m definitely gonna finish this one. I’ve got this vision. It’s all like formed in my head. The music video is formed in my head and I just want to be able to get to a point where it’s done and I can do it and I can say I did it. And I think that’s another thing that people struggle with is the wanting things.

to be so perfect and good and respected and appreciated that they spend so much time not doing it. And I’ve always been the opposite to that. I just, I will do it. Even though people would always say I’m a perfectionist, I don’t think I ever was. It was just, I had attention to detail and the detail often…

Erika (32:16) Mm-hmm.

Salma (32:31) got things confused when I was working with other people. I don’t know, I don’t know why I’m talking about this right now, but just don’t be a perfectionist. It’s not worth it. Cause 99 % of the time people aren’t gonna notice those things that you notice. And I think that’s good life advice really. Maybe that’s one piece of advice you could take from me. But like when you’re being creative, like nothing’s ever perfect either, especially like, and this is one of the underlying fundamental concepts of being a human.

is that you cannot achieve perfection. And actually the beauty is in the imperfection. And the appreciation will be seen, especially in this age of AI and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like the beauty is in those fallible bits of stuff. Like just keep a typo in or keep a wrong note in or just like prove something, prove that this thing is human.

Erika (33:20) break.

Salma (33:25) And I hate that we have to do that, but like also that’s the beauty of it. And it’s like going to a live performance when there’s a mistake made, you know, it’s like, that’s, I was there for that, you know, and it was real and it was raw and it was authentic and no one cares either.

Erika (33:34) Yeah.

No, yeah.

As long as it’s done with heart and genuineness and, you know, like you said, I mean, yeah, the attention to detail thing. I think I’ve also been labeled a perfectionist at different points in my life and I don’t see myself that way. also, I’m very comfortable with certain, like little mistakes here and there that, you know, maybe I can kind of live with. I think…

There is a bit of a musician mindset where you recognize that things can’t be perfect all the time. You’re you you might have a performance and you’re not going to have all the time that you want to practice. But like going back to this, there’s no shortcuts. Like you can’t AI your way into playing piano or playing an instrument or anything. And you do have to pay attention to every detail. Like even if you don’t get all the notes right in the moment, you have to

practice them. have to, you know, there’s things that are hard and you have to work through them. ⁓

Salma (34:41) That’s the

thing as well, like I think code and music are inextricably interlinked. ⁓ I mean, anything that is a creative pursuit is, but I think particularly music and coding, you have to practice, there are no shortcuts and you have to embrace that, embrace, it’s about the process.

Erika (34:46) Yeah.

Salma (35:00) It’s always about the process and I think as a society, as an industry, we are getting so focused on the end result when actually the process is what is the most important part because it’s what leads us to discover things, discover new problems, new solutions, new ways of thinking. People don’t like to experiment these days because they just want it now. They want…

and a thing, they want an app, a website, they want it now. And like, that’s not how life works. I actually used to not really believe in the long game. know, I was very, well, if it can’t be done now, then I’m not gonna bother. But the older I’ve got and the more experience I’ve gained, like the long game really is the play. It’s like, if you have a vision for what you wanna do,

do or where you want to be in five, 10 years, you can start now. And every little thing that you do can go towards achieving that. And you have to be patient. you know, I didn’t get to where I am in any shortcuts whatsoever. And I’m thankful for that because the things I’ve learned, the people I’ve met, the network I’ve built, the…

the things I’ve learned about myself and the things I’ve been able to communicate to other people and my child and and I think we cannot underestimate the power of time and experience and connection with other people and I think one of the things I’ve been thinking about a lot recently is that we are in this age of

how we just talk to computers all day rather than each other. Like we’re losing that conversation and the discovery through conversation and the discovery through different viewpoints. And I think that’s sad. And I think that is quite dangerous for the future because we cannot have all the answers as a single person. And we do need to listen to other people and to talk with other people.

from all different places and walks of life and experiences in order to make a better future.

Erika (37:19) the other thing that comes to mind for me as far as maintaining some kind of direction over a long period of time or creating something that’s worth anything is the why as well. And to me, it’s so clear.

Hearing you talk about tech and hearing you talk about your experience and your vision for the internet, that is core and central to what you do is a strong sense of purpose.

Salma (37:51) The why can also just be because you want to.

Like I’m writing a song because I want to. I’m not writing a song to change the world or change anything. I’m writing a song because it’s a thing that I want to do. That’s all it is. Like it’s not for anyone else, it’s for me. And so there can be things that you do that are just for you and that’s okay. You don’t need to do X, Y, Z for this, that and the other for free, for no money. You don’t have to like…

You don’t have to be exploited by the industry to get anywhere. And you can just do stuff because you want to. And that’s another thing that the internet is kind of clouding our brains with is that it’s only worth doing something if you’re gonna get a thousand views or loads of reposts or loads and loads of followers.

I think we’re kind of starting to see a bit of a shift or maybe it’s just like the fact that I surround myself on the internet with the people who don’t care about that stuff. But, you know, I think the grift is fake. You can’t achieve anything meaningful with that kind of approach. And also people see right through it, like the real people, they see right through it. so do stuff for you and then the people will come because…

Erika (38:50) Bye.

Salma (39:09) There are, guarantee you, there are people out there who feel the same things as you do. You know, I released an article that I wrote in a rage a couple of weeks ago and I just wrote it because I wanted to get it out of my head. I decided I was gonna do it. I wanted to write my thoughts down, some therapy, right? But there are a lot of people who agreed with what I said and a lot of people who felt the same things and who couldn’t put those things into words. But I did it for me. But it just so happened that other people…

Erika (39:33) and

Salma (39:36) appreciated it and resonated with that. And so, you know, if you start with what you want and what you are and unapologetically, within reason, if you’re a nice person, just be nice and yourself, then you will find your people.

Erika (39:52) Well, with that, I think that’s a great place to end it and move on to our final section, which today we are closing out with a little game. So each of us in this game has 30 seconds to pitch a weird website that we love as if it is the most important thing on the internet. No explaining what it is upfront, no context, just the cell. And the other person gets to decide if they would visit this website.

So I will go first and then you get to close us out. Since you curate weird corners of the internet for a living, I am fully expecting you to win. But I do have a website that is near and dear to my heart. So here I go. So let me tell you about Chunk. He is a force of a bear who in 2025 won the Fat Bear Contest.

despite having a broken jaw, likely from a fight with another bear. Then there is bear 910, who is officially described as a rectangle and a cruise ship. And this wonderful collection of bears drew over one and a half million votes in 2025. And this is a competition where it’s a single elimination bracket tournament.

like March Madness, the bears are identified by number, sometimes only get a nickname, and to qualify, a bear must be photographed the beginning of summer and the fall, so you can see all of the bears in their previous and extremely fat states. And there’s even a junior division called Fat Bear Junior for bear cubs. Chunk came in second two years in a row, but this year he won.

meaning he has a whole redemption arc. And that is my website, the Fat Bear Competition website. Would you visit my website?

Salma (41:49) Yes, but only to witness the spectacle because I have no idea what I would be letting myself in for. ⁓ it sounds like I’d be extremely confused, ⁓ but it sounds like a good time.

Erika (41:56) Okay, I will send it.

Ha ha!

Yay! Excellent. It is a good time and ⁓ chunk is very very chunky. It’s real bears. Yeah it’s a it’s a national park in Alaska and they put up webcams and yeah there’s a yearly competition of the fat bear who wins. Yeah.

Salma (42:12) Is it real bears?

I love it. That’s really cute. That’s really cute. so

yeah, cause when they come out of hibernation, they’re not fat. And then they get, ⁓ cute. Cute.

Erika (42:32) Yes, exactly. Yes, yeah.

And then they all fatten up and you get to choose the fattest, the fattest bear.

Salma (42:40) That is cute.

Yeah, that’s that. Yeah, send it on. I am all for the fat bears.

Erika (42:45) ⁓ All right, awesome. Your turn.

Salma (42:47) Okay.

Imagine a website that you cannot navigate, yet you can travel through. You can discover art.

meaning cryptic descriptions of life.

You don’t know where you’re going and whether you’ll ever come out, but you must go deeper in order to understand what this is about.

And you will still emerge from the other end wondering if it was all a dream or if it even happened or whether any of this exists at all.

Erika (43:29) I am very intrigued and would definitely visit this website. It’s giving me like Encyclopedia Britannica 1994 software vibes.

Salma (43:46) So funny you say that because this website doesn’t exist anymore, but it was born in the 90s. was called, now, this was one of my first experiences on the internet and it shaped a lot about how I see the internet and how I want to use the internet and what I want to build on the internet. It’s called hell.com.

Erika (43:50) no!

Mm-hmm.

Salma (44:12) Now there is a Wikipedia article about hell.com and actually a couple of years ago, I tried to recreate hell.com. ⁓ But it wasn’t as fun when I was creating it because the whole point is that you had no idea what you clicked on, what it would do or where it would go. And it changed all the time. And it was like random stuff and you didn’t, it was the…

Erika (44:17) I’m sorry.

Yes.

⁓ God.

the lab room.

Salma (44:39) pinnacle of being on the internet in the nineties. So read up about it, hell.com. was just, it was so incredible. And I want it to come back to life again. But if I built it, it wouldn’t give me the same wonder because I’d know what I did, you know, and I did have some fun with recreating some of it. Like I actually went on the way back machine and then I took some journeys from it and I recreated those journeys.

Erika (44:41) man. Okay.

Rude.

Salma (45:06) on an Astro site and it was great. can’t even remember whether it’s still live on Netlify or whatever, but don’t know. But read up about it and please someone rebuild this kind of experience because it was so incredibly entrancing and it’s what like got me really like hooked on the weirdness of the internet and how fascinating it can be. But it felt a bit dangerous, you know, like you didn’t know what was, but that was.

Erika (45:16) Guys.

Yes.

Salma (45:34) But it wasn’t, it was completely not dangerous, but it felt that way and it was exciting. And especially as a teenager, when you don’t know anything about the world, you think you’re doing something wrong when you’re like navigating the kind of website like this. And it was just, was, I will never forget it. I will think about this till I die.

Erika (45:51) Ugh, I love it. Okay, well, yes. And you know, the chaos element could be like multiple people contribute to it and then you don’t know what somebody else built. So yeah, yeah, we can all jump in on rebuilding it together.

Salma (46:02) Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. We can go for it, yeah. No

code reviews because you don’t need to see what’s being done. Just YOLO merge everything,

Erika (46:11) No.

Absolutely. All right. Well, where can folks find you on the internet? Where’s the best place for them to look?

Salma (46:22) Everything’s on my website, whitepanther.com, whitep4nth3r.com ⁓ or bluesguy. I’ve got a YouTube channel, I do some kind of stuff. But also ⁓ please subscribe to my newsletter, which you can do on my website because that is when you will hear about the release for my new song.

Erika (46:39) Hmm, very cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us and thank you listeners for tuning in to Overcommitted. If you like what you hear here, please do follow, subscribe, or do whatever it is you like to do on the podcast app of your choice. Check us out on Blue Sky as well and share with your friends. Until next week, goodbye.

Salma (46:44) Thank you.